a new degu pellet

[aqh88]

The owner of www.kmshayloft.com has expressed interest in possibly making a degu specific pellet for the US and Canada. She always puts tons of research into her pellets and will only sell the highest quality and healthiest foods. Her guinea pig pellets are without a doubt the best available. Before I suggest to her that it would be a good idea to attempt this I would like to know how many degu owners on this side of the ocean would be willing to try the new pellet and what ingredients degu owners think should be or shouldn't be included in a degu pellet? There's also a very good chance it would be cheaper than Brisky and similar degu specific pellets that already exist.

For an example of good/bad pellet ingredients see www.guinealynx.info/pellets.html. GL is the major guinea pig health and medical site and they have done extensive research into what makes a healthy guinea pig pellet. I'm sure much of the bad ingredients also apply to degus.

[Erica]

I might be interested.

[dreamcatcher]

I found a non-molasses pellet. I'm not sure what the quality of food is but I figure the less sugar the better.
The Pet value brand of guinea pig pellet has no molasses.
Ingredients are as follows:
dehydrated alfalfa meal, wheat middlings, ground barley, ground oats, soybean meal, calcium lignin sulfonate. salt, magnesium oxide, calcium propionate, monodicalcium phosphate, DL-methionone, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, vitamin B12 supplement, vitamin D3 supplement, vitamin A acetate, ascorbic acid( vitamin C), folic acidcalcium iodate, pyridoxine hydrochloride, menadione sodium bisulphite complex, riboflavin, calcium pantothenate, sodium selenite, vitamin E supplement, zinc oxide, ferrous sulfate monohydrate.
Crude protein.............18.0%
Crude fat.....................2.5%
crude fiber...................17.0%
moisture.......................12.0%
So there it is. Not sure if any of that is good but it doesn't say anything about molasses or sucrose or any "ose's" for that matter.
Please let me know your thoughts.
Thanks
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Thanks Ricky,
I knew that blip should have been put here ;D

[tigerlily]

I've thought very much about this pellet thing. There isn't ANY pellet which is really good for degus. I would say that good pellets does NOT include:

- ANY animalprotein
- wheat
- molasses

Those vere only few things, there is a lot of more ingredients which are bad for degus.

Degu pellet would include:

- little bit of tree bark
- herbs
- grasses
- seeds
- tree leaves

*baad english ;D*

[ra]

I am interested. The best I could find is Brisky's. The girls seem to be fairing well. I'm sure none of the processed foods are as good as what they would get in the wild. They get good quality timothy/orchard grass hay and fresh dandelion greens too. I worry about them not getting enough greens through winter though.

[aqh88]

Dreamcatcher that is one of the better pellets I've seen but still there are a few problems. Mainly the cause is that it's alfalfa based throwing all the numbers off. 2nd the alfalfa is ground up into a powder instead of left as long strand fiber. This destroys much of the useful fiber and makes it much less nutritious for grazing animals which is what I would categorize degus as. The biggest thing that's off is the protein. From what I've read degus eat a very low energy, high fiber diet which would also be quite low in fats, proteins, and carbohydrates. I would think a protein level closer to 10-12% would be more acceptable and 18% is quite high even for grazing animals that naturally eat higher energy diets. The degus digestive tract and urinary system will be stressed from trying to eliminate the excess protein and they may become overweight. Being overweight increases the risk of diabetes for any animal. They will also drink alot more water and still have more concentrated urine which in horses has been shown to increase their risk of bladder stones and urinary tract infections.

Now brisky is pure crap in my opinion. It doesn't even say whether it has timothy or alfalfa just forage products. Usually vague references like that mean it uses low quality ingredients that may not be providing fiber that is actually useful. The thing I hate the most about Brisky though is the high amount of corn products and the tallow(animal product). Obviously animal products should not be fed to a herbivorous animal because they cannot even properly digest such protein and fat sources. I also do not think corn has any place in the diet of a grazing animal. While carbohydrates are not as bad as sugars they do break down into simple sugars and corn is just loaded with carbohydrates. It's also high in starches and very low in any useable nutrients. Most animals that have a diet high in grasses and green parts of plants have many issues digesting grains and corn is among the worst causing potentially fatal illnesses with horses and guinea pigs. It's a cheap, low quality ingredient that has no place in a high quality pellet. Their pellet is also high in protein, salt, and contains dried bacteria. Dried bacteria do not help the animal at all and can sometimes cause serious digestive tract issues and fatal diarhea. I'm also pissed at them for failing to answer any of my emails about their pellets and overall I just hate the company. Some of the products they promote are actually dangerous to the animals. Example is wheels for guinea pigs which end up with all sorts of health problems if given wheels to run in. I think they are lying threw their teeth when they claim to care about pets or they are quite ignorant and can't take the time to look up any good information sources.

I have a few reference books on order at Barnes and Noble that will hopefully give me more specific information about degus without the conflicting opinions and myths I'm finding everywhere. Most of my info is based on other animals with similar diets that I studied in nutrition class and what I've found so far on wild degu diets so I cannot say I'm 100% accurate in my opinions. Currently for the basics I would like to see a pellet that contains good quality timothy grass for fiber, no corn, no animal products, a fairly low amount of grains, low protein, and low fat. Degus naturally have a low energy diet and so need a low energy pellet to avoid health problems and becoming obese. The times that they eat higher energy foods such as the reproductive and food storage parts of plants(seeds, nuts, fruits, vegetables, roots....) coincides with times they need more energy such as breeding seasons and winter when they need energy to produce heat and keep warm. Pet degus do not have these problems and even breeders seem to be better fed than they would be in the wild. I also think the most important part of the degus diet should be grass hay and it should make up around 90% of the food they eat. The last 10% should be fresh foods(not dried), possibly some bark, and pellets. With the occasionally seed or nuts for treats. If I'm way off on anything let me know. I've actually only had degus for probably a month.....

(Note- I have insomnia, my medicine quit working, and the doctor won't give me the one I want so if I don't show up for a few days or I make posts that are incomprehensible I'm likely suffering sleep deprivation.)

[dreamcatcher]

wow that was quite a mouthful!
I do realize that some of those ingredients probably aren't the best but that, my dear, is the only option I have right now.
My goos do get alot of exercise as they have a fairly big cage, so the chance of them getting obese is slimmed right down.
Unfortunately, all the other foods I have found are much higher in grain, cereal and dried fruit and veg.
I even found a food that was supposedly made for degus that is ALL dried fruit, veg cereal and grain.
I went through each and every food bag in the darn pet store and this one that I have now is the best one I have to chose from.
I do hope in the near future they do come out with a specific degu food that is acceptable, but for now they get LOTS of Timothy hay and these "not as bad as the rest" pellets.
I do try to lean more towards the hay and only give them what I have to for pellets.
Thank you though for all your research and I hope it can be put to good use and sent to a company that makes the foods and maybe they can do something with it.

[aqh88]

sorry if it sounded like I was implying you don't take care of your degus. Everyone has trouble finding a good pellet and if that pellet was sold around here I'd probably be feeding. I think it's important though to point out the problems even with better pellets so that people may agree or disagree and eventually come to a concensus on what does make the best pellet. I would also think it's useful to know the potential health problems a certain pellet could cause so you can keep a closer watch for them and possibly take steps to prevent it from happening.

That's a baby post. My typing record is over 100wpm so I can type pretty much as fast as I think. That post took no time to type up. Proofreading it takes longer than the actual typing part.

[dreamcatcher]

No no no........please don't think I was getting my back up! I was just stating a fact. I really have no other choices around here as Degus in Canada really aren't as big as they are in the UK.

Please don't think that you offended me in any way.
Everything is Peachy Sweety! ;D

[sarah]

We would definitely try the new pellet and I'm so happy to learn of a local source for hay. The girls love their Farmer Dave's hay, but they also like trying new things.

Sarah

[tigerlily]

aqh88: That's just what I think. Winter is coming in here Finland, and I would try to make a mix from different kind of herbs like dandelion, nettle, chamomile, etc... And with that drop the amount of pellets in my degus diet. Most people say, that degus can eat so much pellets what they want, but I don't think that's good for them...

[ra]

My goodness you certainly have my attention. I will limit the Brisky pellets immediately! Perhaps the girls would be better off with just the Timothy/orchard grass hay and guinea pig biscuits - no pellets.

Please encourage kmshayloft to develope a good quality Degu feed as quickly as possible. I am DEFINETLY interested. (and not just a little alarmed at what you have said about the quality of the Brisky pellets I have been feeding.)

I have noted some of the inconsistancies in what Brisky's are selling as Degu treats. I've been concerned but did not know where else to turn.

[aqh88]

Well it seems that despite the research done using degus noone has actually established their exact nutritional needs. Heck I even found the nutrient requirements of a vole but they don't exist for a degu. It's rather starting to annoy me.

[aqh88]

So Linda says the minimum amount the mill makes is 1 ton which means we'd have to find enough people to order 2000lbs of pellets. Would also like to know what brand anyone currently feeds and the price along with how many lbs the bag is so we even know if the cost is going to be worth the effort. Shipping to Canada is possible but will cost a little more. I would think it's still probably cheaper than Brisky which without shipping, even if you buy their 9lb bag, still comes out to be over $3 per lb. I get the guinea pig pellets from Linda for closer to $1 per lb. It will likely end up more expensive than rabbit and guinea pig pellets from places like Walmart but you don't even want to get me started on the qualitly of foods sold at such places.

Next, is it possible to just tweak her timothy based guinea pig pellets to make an ideal degu pellet? The ingredients are listed on her site. At least drop the molasses. Then maybe an addition of dried herbs. Types of herbs will need to be discussed and researched further. Anyone think that would make a good enough degu pellet that everyone would be willing to try it? One of the main things I'm wondering is if the 14% protein is too high.

Lastly I want to know if anyone has heard of degus having bladderstones or any urinary tract problems or any problems peeing that could at all be connected? Guinea pigs being very prone to bladderstones need a low calcium diet but I see many feeding dandelions to degus which are very high in calcium and oxalic acid. Both cause bladderstones. It may be important to know if certain ingredients are added that will raise the calcium level.

Oh yeah. Tigerlilly(or anyone else) why do you dislike wheat in a degu pellet? Most herbivores seem to digest wheat quite well and I believe it is currently included in the pellets my guinea pigs are eating.

[dreamcatcher]

Okay, so I have said before that I found that Pet Value brand guinea pig pellets are the best yet in my area for nutrition. I pay about $7 for a 4 kg bag.
If I were to have it shipped across then I would probably try to buy more at once to save on the shipping.
Which means that I would buy a bunch but it would last me a while so I wouldn't have to buy and ship again for a while.
Probably not much help to you but there it is.
Sorry, I wish there was more that I could do.

[ra]

After seeing Brisky pellets contained tallow I placed my next order for Degu Complete from The Exotic Nutrition Company. No animal products in their ingredients list. The pellets are alfafa based and there are wheat grains mixed in too. There just doesn't seem to be a perfect Degu food out there.

I paid $23.95 for 10lbs plus shipping.

[tigerlily]

aqh88: I'm not an expert when it comes to food, but wheat is high in carbohydrates, about 58,7g/100g. You can find it everywhere, in dogfood, catfood, guineapig food, rabbit food... Everywhere where it doesn't belong. I believe, that wheat has some good in it too, but in my opinion degupellet shouldn't include high amount of wheat (like Altromin pellets do). Corn is another, it includes 25,6g absorbing (is this the right word? ;D) carbohydrates in 100g.

"It's a cheap, low quality ingredient that has no place in a high quality pellet." <- same thing with wheat.

"Degus naturally have a low energy diet and so need a low energy pellet to avoid health problems and becoming obese."

Corn includes 522kJ (137kcal) energy, but wheat includes over 1000kJ. That's another reason why I don't think that wheat is good. Wheat bran is another thing, it doesn't include so much carbohydrates and energy.

[aqh88]

All grains contain over 1000kj of energy. While it would be nice we can't make a pellet without grains using conventional methods unless it also contains no vitamins, minerals, or any ingredients aside from grass like timothy. It just won't go through the machines at the mill and there wouldn't be much nutrition to it so you have to pick the best grain and include it in the smallest amounts possible. I imagine that could be one reason pretty much all dry pet foods contain grain.

There are tons of other issues with corn besides carbohydrates. My horse nutrition notes say plain yellow corn contains over 1500kj, 4.76g fat, 78.6g carbohydrates, 7.3g fiber, and 710mg P with 7mg Ca all per 100g. Wheat contains 1423kj, 1.8g fat, 74g carbohydrates, 12.7g fiber, and 402mg P to 42mg Ca per 100g. While wheat is still fairly high in carbohydrates and energy it's not as high as corn, has nearly 1/4th the fat, twice the fiber, and an improved Ca:P ratio. You also have to take into account corn is not digested nearly as well by herbivores as other grains. It leads to alot of founder in horses because they have to utilize a special bacteria to break it down and end up producing huge amounts of lactic acid. Much the same is found in studies done on cattle but cattle have a less sensitive digestive tract and can handle alot more corn without side effects. Comparison of some other grains:
soybeans: 1742kj, 36g protein, 19g fat, 30g carbohydrates, 9g fiber
barley: 1450kj, 11g protein, 2g fat, 74g carbohydrates, 14g fiber
millet: 1582kj, 11g protein, 4.22g fat, 78g carbohydrates, 8.5g fiber
oats: 1628kj, 16.9g protein, 6.9g fat, 67g carbohydrates, 10.6g fiber
rye: 1402kj, 14.7g protein, 2.5g fat, 70g carbohydrates, 14.6g fiber

In the end out of most of the common grains wheat is one of the lowest for energy, protein, and fat with a fair amount of fiber. Also I have the Ca and P amounts and wheat has one of the most balanced ratios. The only downside to it is that it's slightly higher in carbohydrates but I really don't see any other grain I would prefer that much more over wheat. Rye is probably a tie. The soybeans are being removed which the molasses was needed mostly to stick the soybeans together anyway so the protein, energy, and fat will likely go down and the Ca:P ratio might go up slightly.

[tigerlily]

You know a lot about these things, and I learn more all the time Wheat is ok, if there is not a huge amount of it in pellets, but when pellets contain mostly grain, I really don't think that's a good thing. Then it's almost the same thing than feed them with some hamster food-mixes.

For exam. Altromin guinea pig pellet, ingredients:

Wheat, barley, oats, soybeans, corn, milk powder, soy oil, alfalfa, phospahtes, minerals, trace elements, vitamins.

^ Does that look good in your eye? I hope not, and I don't believe it would. Plus all of that grain there is milk powder.

So, now I accept wheat in little amounts and I believe there is some good things in it like you said. But still there is too much wheat and corn in too many places.

I must mention again, that my english is not-so-good, so sometimes writing messages is a bit difficult and sometimes I can't say something I would like to, because I can't find the right word etc. But maybe writing in here makes only good for me ;D

[aqh88]

Maybe I should just go ahead and post the guinea pig pellet ingredients. These are the pellets currently sold at kmshayloft.com that we are altering.

Crude Protein (min) 14.00 %
Crude Fat (min) 2.5 %
Crude Fiber (min) 20.00 %
Crude Fiber (max) 25.00 %
Vitamin A (IU/KG) 30,000
Vitamin D-3 (ICU/KG) 1,000
Vitamin C (mg/kg) 1,000
Calcium (min) 0.7
Phosphorus (min) 0.4

Ingredients: Timothy grass hay, oats, wheat, barley, soybean hulls, soy meal, Choline Chloride, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin A supplement,Vitamin E supplement, Manganese Oxide, Meniodine Bisulfate, dl-Methionine, Zinc Oxide, d-Calcium Pantothenate,Copper Sulfate, Niacin, d-Biotin supplement, Pyrideoxine Hydrochloride, Folic Acid, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin D-3 supplement, Riboflavin supplement, Cobalt Sulfate, Vitamin B-12 supplement, Calcium Iodate, Cane molasses

Notice the first ingredient is grass not grains. It's also listed as timothy grass hay not meal and is not ground into a fine powder. Seriously I've put these pellets in my mouth and tasted them. You end up with a little pile of timothy hay bits because majority of the pellet is made up of these little hay pieces stuck together. I don't believe there is any added salt. These pellets do not taste salty compared to even Oxbow pellets. Currently the degu pellets in planning would be the same minus the molasses and soybean hulls so the fat and protein listed in the analysis should be lower and I see nothing else that would add simple sugars.

But still there is too much wheat and corn in too many places.

One of the main reasons I'm trying to make a new pellet with a person I know doesn't use alot of grains or any corn in her pellets.