M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 14, 2023 15:17:46 GMT
It’s been a while since I posted on here so hello again I need some much needed advice on the timing for introductions of our 3 boys. I’ll try to insert pictures to give you a better overview and also some background for a better idea of the dynamic. We adopted two males, Merry and Pippin, in late 2016 and were told they were around 8 months old but suspect they could have been a little older. Everything was fine until we had to separate them a year later in late 2017 due to them repeatedly fighting badly and drawing blood. We had them living side by side and managed to get them to a stage where they would pile and groom at playtimes, but they simply refused to live together. Sadly, Merry passed away in late 2019 and Pippin was left alone. We adopted new boy Vas early 2020 and popped him side by side with Pippin. They were super happy and tweeted to each other through the bars but sadly Vas passed away a few weeks after adopting him so we never got to the introduction stage. We adopted two new boys, Jasper and Smudge, at the end of 2020 (we were told they were around 4 years old at the time) and they moved in next to Pippin. Jasper is currently, and has mostly been since we got them, the dominant degu of the two. It might also be noteworthy that Smudge is pretty much blind as a bat and has been since we adopted him. The new boys took a while to settle in but they are currently happily living side by side next to Pippin (both in the large adventura cages.) ibb.co/GJnVrgYMe and my husband did try an introduction maybe six or so months after adopting the boys but it ended badly with bites and a FBOD. After that we decided it was too soon so we left things to simmer and the grudges to die down. (We also had to move house a couple of times so there was never a good moment to try introductions again.) So that brings us up to date. Pippin is around 7./7.5 years old and living alone next to Jasper and Smudge who are both around 6.5 years old. We’ve also been in our current home for just over a year so they’re all fully settled. On the whole they generally just ignore each other and get on with life. They’ve lived next to each other for 2.5 years so they’re pretty much used to living side by side now. They often sleep next to each other at the bars ibb.co/fqgM59j and occasionally talk to each other (Pippin isn’t very vocal but he sometimes tweets softly.) However, there are also the odd signs of aggression such as biting at the bars or staring each other down (all this is usually between Jasper and Pippin. Smudge is generally at ease in his cage and doesn’t pay much attention to Pippin there.) They currently have teddies and substrate swapped daily and for maybe 5 or so months they have their playtimes side by side. At playtimes they just have a mesh barrier separating them. For the last few weeks (after I reread the introduction section on here) they’ve been sharing the same sand at playtime which I swap between the pens. They seem to enjoy this sharing of the sand. They have a good root around and sniff. Jasper especially seems to like sharing sand and popcorns after having a bath in it. During playtime they can be inquisitive and friendly, sniffing each other and touching noses through the barrier. Other times they show signs of aggression. Mainly Pippin tooth chatters or growls towards either boy, Jasper will grunt and stomp his feet towards Pippin and Smudge will scream/squawk at Pippin. But mostly Pippin tends to pine at the barrier and Jasper tends to run in, touch noses and then run away. All in all the three boys seem quite happy to be close to each other and carry on playtime as normal. ibb.co/xFcRPsVibb.co/hscjSsDSo me and my husband were debating on whether it’s the right time to start introductions or whether there are still too many signs of aggression? We also debated using a barrier with wider bars between them in a neutral area first to see how they react rather than going straight into a fully fledged intro, but we also weren’t sure if this would just annoy and confuse them (it’s so hard to know what the right thing to do is and I fear the FBOD!) We just don’t want to put any unnecessary stress on Pippin as he’s really starting to show his age recently. It does break our hearts that Pippin hasn’t had cage mates for so long and he’s getting quite old now. We just want him to have the best and although he piles and grooms with us, we know it’s not enough for him. He’s even started to pluck hairs out of one of his legs which we think is stress from him being alone Thank you very much for reading this, I’m sorry if it’s quite lengthy. Hopefully it makes sense but if you need any more info let me know Any help/advice would be so much appreciated!
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Post by teemu on Apr 14, 2023 16:29:47 GMT
From what you describe, their behavior is quite par for the course, and does not seem overly aggressive - or more accurately does not seem definitely aggressive. Degus can be very vocal about socializing with ones outside their pack, even if they are not trying to be outright aggressive. Biting at the bars can also simply be a signal of impatience or frustration at not being able to go and meet the other degu, rather than an indication of wanting to bite them. It sounds like they are pretty comfortable with each other now. If they were very averse, they would certainly try to outright bite each other through the mesh. What you are describing sounds like tense and careful, but not outright aggressive behavior. They are posturing, but that could also be because they cannot actually sort out the situation and are forced to just stare through the barrier. The situation sounds like it could go either way, to me.
Sleeping next to each other is a good sign, as it means they are not actively attempting to put distance between them, and do not care too much about what is happening in the other cage.
I agree that the fear of a FBOD scenario is a really daunting thing. A bad intro can escalate really quickly, so being very careful and vigilant is important. But the situation does not sound hopeless. If you are willing to try intros, it needs to of course be in a more neutral area where nobody thinks they are the boss yet (do you have another room that could be degu-proofed for this?). You might also want to think whether one of the brothers is more comfortable with Pippin, and consider whether it might be a good idea to attempt to first let each meet Pippin separately (starting with the more comfortable one). Things can become really chaotic if there are multiple degus riling each other up and becoming confused, so a more controlled intro might be good.
It is true that their ages are rather advanced, especially for Pippin. You will have to of course gauge his tolerances and general comfort carefully. But old degus have been successfully introduced to each other, and it does not sound like the situation is in any way hopeless so far.
You might also want to move their cages just a tiny bit closer. They are quite close already, but unless the angle is off, it looks like there might be just a bit of extra space that could be safely shrunk down (basically, as long as no body parts or tails can end in the other cage or within bite reach, it is fine). Since they are basically fine within touching distance of each other without bites or other definitely bad signs, allowing them to be as close as is safely possible should be a good way to see if increased contact will cause any issues.
(If it's already just a bit over tail length between their cages, ignore the last bit of advice. You might try to bring the cages closer than that when you can actively monitor them and intervene immediately if something might happen, but for normal living arrangements, the minimum distance should always be so that a tail cannot poke through the bars and be reached by the others.)
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 14, 2023 20:40:03 GMT
It is good to see and hear from you again! Welcome back, M&P!
Thank you for the update on your new degus over the past several years, as you have looked for companionship for Pippin.
I also noticed that the distance between the cages is such that you could reduce it. I think I would make that the first step. Then watch them to see how they react. Will they continue to sleep near each other, or will the sleeping situation be momentarily upset? Or will they interact more? While it is a small step, it could tell us a lot, and help us to know how to proceed.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 15, 2023 8:12:22 GMT
Hi thank you both so much for your advice. It’s nice to know we’re on course! We’ll definitely start with the cages closer together today and keep an eye on them to see how they react. It’s probably about 11cm apart currently and we had it like that because they all like to stick their tails out of the bars while they sleep up top but I don’t think the angle would make it easy for them to push their tails through both sets of cage bars. Plus I’m not convinced they would bite badly if a tail tip did get through. At playtime if fingers push through the barrier I used to freak out a lot thinking they might get bitten off but all they do is sniff or lick so I’m hoping it would be the same for the cages.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 15, 2023 8:39:30 GMT
Ok so we moved the cages closer to each other and got a really good reaction. Pippin and Jasper went to the heat pads first and just acted exactly the same. It’s like they didn’t even notice the change in distance. It was when Smudge came over that change happened. Jasper and Smudge were tweeting to each other and Pippin turned to put his nose to the bars and gave the loudest, most solid tweet I’ve heard from him in years. The other boys immediately put their noses to the bars and tweeted back. ibb.co/jw6Rfkqibb.co/8XGTYm7Pippin turned away to wash and settle down to sleep, still tweeting softly. Jasper did a little dominating of Smudge (but all talkative and friendly) and then they groomed. Now they’ve all settled down to sleep as normal. ibb.co/P4FkvrTI don’t want to get ahead of myself but I’m taking this as a really good sign! In terms of a place to carry out the introductions, we have a small inner hallway where we’ve put all degus before (Pippin at different times of course.) We put them there very infrequently, just when they need to blow off some extra steam or stretch their legs outside of playtimes. I think it will be neutral enough as they don’t go there very often, but also secure enough. If that’s not neutral enough we could put a blanket down on a single bed in the same room they have their playtimes? We thought we could try an introduction tomorrow. What do you think?
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Post by teemu on Apr 15, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
Sounds like a good development, I agree! I think that from what you have described, they will not be getting more comfortable later on than this. They have had a long time getting used to each other, and it's always a bit of a shock when they first meet, but I am hearing no worrying signs that would indicate that more time is needed. It can always be hard to begin with, but basically it's just a step that has to be taken.
I think that the shared mesh wire they have during playtime is a really strong indicator that they are not strongly opposed to each other. My experience is that if degus actually abhor each other, they will try to punch or bite the other one through the bars, or even lunge bodily at them without caring for the bars at all. The fact that they are touching each other and nobody is raising any issues is, from what I know, a very encouraging sign. From personal experience, if a degu has issues with another putting fingers on them, those fingers can be removed really quickly...
The hallway sounds like it would work, especially if you wash the floor and other surfaces to make sure there are no urine smells. It's not a problem if they've been there sometimes, it just needs to not be a place that anyone has strongly identified as theirs. It could even be good that they know the place generally, as a safe area, as it means that they are less likely to be alarmed and panic over being put there.
As I'm sure you know, the most important thing will be to keep careful watch over the situation and have thick gloves or other very good method of extracting a struggling degu if a FBOD situation threatens to happen. For the first intros, I recommend making sure that there are no places they could hide under, like tunnels or boxes, since those can be really scary (for the degus and for the people trying to make sure nothing will happen) and someone can freak out if they feel trapped. It would be great if you could have two people ready to interfere, since multiple degus at once can get really chaotic. If something does happen, try to get Pippin rather than either of the others, since him being in there with either of the brothers will still be an issue.
I'm still wondering about whether or not it'd be better to introduce one of the brothers at a time, or if it would just be the simplest to have them all in there. Maybe someone else could weigh in on that? I'm mainly thinking of how Pippin could feel overwhelmed with two degus surrounding him, and the situation could become chaotic. But I could also see the brothers feeling scared if they have to go in there alone...
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 15, 2023 11:16:21 GMT
So when we met them at the failed introduction, Smudge generally just tried to escape. I think owing to him being blind he just wants out and relies on Jasper to take care of it. I think meeting all three should hopefully be ok. I was bitten badly at the last meet through oven gloves so I’m thinking maybe a plastic bowl or colander to put over Pippin in case the worst should happen could be best? I’ll also have a spray bottle handy.
I would do the meet with my husband so we can sit either end of the hallway. Is it still the best advice to share a sandbath prior to the intro? Also is there known to be a better time of the day to do them? Like when they’re sleepy or more alert?
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 15, 2023 11:22:49 GMT
Also, just as an afterthought, Jasper and Smudge do sometimes do lunging montions towards Pippin at the playtime barrier. When Smudge squawks at him he puts his paws up at the mesh and pushes. Jasper tends more to stamp his feet and grunt towards him. This happens each playtime but they dont do it every time they see Pippin at the barrier.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 15, 2023 14:42:06 GMT
Sorry to keep adding :´) but I’ve just closely watched the full hour of playtime and only saw two very mild bits of aggression.
First Smudge gave a very half-hearted squawk, pushed lightly at the mesh and ran away. Later Jasper gave a bit of a grunt and stomp. I told Jasper no and he stopped and ran away.
Both displays were very mild. I’m getting the feeling an introduction tomorrow could be a good thing for them but I’m not getting my hopes up!
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Post by teemu on Apr 15, 2023 15:01:00 GMT
I think that all of that sounds totally fine so far. It is very likely that it will take multiple slow introductions to actually get them to come to terms with each other, but everything there sounds basically normal. Do keep us posted on your progress I'm not sure about the sand bath, but basically anything will be fine as an emergency interruption method as long as it's safe for the animals and can quickly prevent them from reaching each other. I've used things like a book in a pinch to put between them so I'll have a moment more to maneuver and remove one from the situation. Something like a bowl should be fine, and you might want to consider having a towel on hand as well.
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Post by savvy on Apr 15, 2023 20:10:10 GMT
I've found a large metal flour sieve to be very useful in separating fighting degus. Just pop it over the degus and you can hold them at bay with your hands at a safe distance on the handle.
Plus they have trouble seeing a fine mesh from above.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 16, 2023 12:09:19 GMT
So we did the introduction not too long ago and it went much better than expected.
Me, Jasper and Smudge started off at one end of the hallway and my husband and Pippin at the other. When they met there was no true aggression shown, but also no miracle grooming or tweeting either. They sniffed each other, fluffed up, growled but then broke away to explore the hallway. There was a moment when Jasper looked like he might groom Pippin near his mouth but Pippin was a bit overwhelmed and moved away. Smudge looked like he might nip Pippin a couple of times but didn’t.
We let it last for about 4 minutes until Jasper and Smudge jumped onto my husbands lap so we decided it was a good time to end it.
We’re going to try again tomorrow at a similar time and see how that goes. Please cross your fingers for us!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 16, 2023 12:10:43 GMT
I've found a large metal flour sieve to be very useful in separating fighting degus. Just pop it over the degus and you can hold them at bay with your hands at a safe distance on the handle. Plus they have trouble seeing a fine mesh from above. We had the colander waiting but luckily this time we didn’t need it! We’ll keep it handy for tomorrow just in case.
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Post by teemu on Apr 16, 2023 12:32:22 GMT
Sounds like things went quite well! The large hallway is allowing them some distance, which is good. Degus often, in my experience, want to approach introductions at their own pace, and the first encounters can be quite cordial like this. It certainly shows that they are not vehemently opposed to each other.
It's possible that you will see more heated interactions later when they become more used to being places together in the area and stat sorting out how to actually deal with each other's presence, but that is normal. As long as you keep a careful eye on it and are ready to intervene if things start going south, thing are looking promising.
Keeping the cages close to each other to get them more used to the idea that they are closely associating is likely going to be a good choice for now. You can also use that to gauge whether someone is looking less happy about the arrangements at some point. If you are present and can quickly interfere if there's some issues (that is, when you are actively watching them), you could even put the cages within reaching distance and see if they are fine with having their sleeping places so close to each other. But if they start to look bothered, give them more space again.
I'm keeping fingers crossed for you!
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 18, 2023 9:51:29 GMT
So we met them all again yesterday (in the same way as before) and this one was much shorter as they didn’t seem as comfortable.
So at first they ignored each other in the hallway, sniffing about, but then Smudge decided he wanted to have a good look at Pippin. He was shoving his nose under his bum and trying to nip. We gently steered Smudge away because we could see Pippin wasn’t having any of it.
Then Jasper and Pippin had a little fling at each other (the kind where they come together and spring apart).
We decided to end it because we could see Pippin was just getting really overwhelmed and angry. I’ve been starting to think that maybe we ended it too soon but we felt like a FBOD was probable as Pippin was getting really agitated.
After the introduction Jasper just slumped and sulked in his cage—interestingly in the pile of Pippins swapped hay from that morning. He stayed there for a good 30 minutes (which is unlike him, he’s usually a busy-body). When Smudge went up to him, though, he was happy to tweet, groom and pile, so that’s good that their relationship isn’t suffering. Pippin and Smudge have generally just been getting on with things as normal while in the cages and at playtime, but I can tell Jasper’s getting a little stressed. He’s biting the bars a lot more and also grunting and stomping more than usual. When I catch him doing it I slap my hand down and tell him ´no’ in the hopes that he’ll realise he’s not allowed to be aggressive.
Sadly we can’t try again today as we have too much going on, but we can try again tomorrow evening.
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 18, 2023 10:13:42 GMT
I think I would wait a couple of days or until they have all calmed down again to do another meet. I think it's better to go slow and avoid those FBODs if at all possible at this stage, it will only set them back.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 18, 2023 10:27:00 GMT
All of this seems to be very positive! The bum bit is normal getting-to-know-you behaviour, as is the little tussle. Mine can spend an hour doing that girly slap every evening. I only get wary when they do so in stupid places, such as on the edge of a drop!
The swapped substrate behaviour also sounds positive, almost as if he wanted to try and be close again!
Just remember that there are certain behaviours (like the scrapping, mounting, etc) that MUST happen as part of introductions, even if it makes us feel a bit uncomfortable. Just always try to finish each meeting with positive behaviour. By that, I mean set a time each meet. Even if they just wander around uninterested in each other, but finish immediately if you see them edging towards FBOD. If the latter, leave it a few days before trying to meet again. The reason for this is that degus are worse than a scorned woman for holding a grudge. You may need to take a step back, such as shorter meeting times, or moving the cages further apart for a few days, until things calm down again.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 18, 2023 15:08:45 GMT
Ok, I think we’ll try again tomorrow evening and see how that goes. It’ll have been a day and a half at that point so hopefully that’ll give them enough of a break.
Just doing playtime again now and it’s all the usual behaviours I expect from them, no better and no worse.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 19, 2023 19:47:35 GMT
Another intro this evening and this one went… well?
So we had the usual set up and they all met. We let this one happen for a while. Jasper and Pippin growled while doing the usual wiggle dance and spinning around each other. They had one nasty fling where they came together, so I just steered one away with a piece of cardboard, and when they came back together they were a lot calmer but still growly and had their heckles up. Jasper also put his chin on Pippins lower back a few times, as if he wanted to mount, but he just gave a little push instead.
So having watched them all for a while, me and my husband get this impression: Jasper doesn’t want to bite Pippin but he will if pushed. He’s just trying to dominate and Pippin is being stubborn. Pippin’s simply refusing at this moment to submit. Smudge is just there for the ride and seems to enjoy interfering. He likes to test Pippin by trying to nip his tail. Jasper gets annoyed at Smudge interfering and pushes him away.
So I’m hesitant to say it went well but I’m taking this as a small win. They weren’t nice to each other but that they didn’t bite each other for a good six or seven minutes is somewhat positive in my book.
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M&P
Foraging Degu
Posts: 93
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Post by M&P on Apr 20, 2023 18:40:17 GMT
Just as an update, we did an introduction tonight and Jasper and Pippin attempted a furball. Luckily no one got hurt. So we’re going to leave it a couple of days at least before we try again.
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