Hello best degu forum and plz shed light on my situation

[tolisgoal]

I recently adopted 2 degus from a local breeder (basically got them for free, not a shop, he does it as a hobby), who has a ton of rodents (degus, guinea pigs, rabbits, gerbils etc.). I asked him for 2 same gender degus ofc as I wanted to keep 2 of them together, which from what I've read here is better than keeping 1 alone and I was given 2 supposed males.

Now the issue I'm facing is that I'm not sure if the degus were sexed correctly, as the gray degu (the other one is brown) has a much smaller gap between the cone and his anus. His body is also smaller in general. They are 6-7 months old, I would like to also provide some photos so any tips on how to get a clear pic? I don't know how to restrain them or put them in a position where taking a clear photo would be easy. They are comfortable with getting on my hand and being picked up and so on if this helps.

Thank you for your help!

[tolisgoal]

Here's the pics.

[savvy]

Welcome to the forum and the thoroughly weird world of degus.

From what I can see, you do indeed have one of each sex, but to be sure (the first photo isn't at the best angle) persuade your degu to sit in a clear glass bowl, treats help a lot, and photograph from beneath. This should give you a clearer view and keep your degu happy long enough to photograph. Body size is no indication of gender in degus, and they should no or little signs of pregnancy until they are a few days away from giving birth.

If you do have one of each, the female may already be expecting pups as they can breed at a very early age.

In the meantime, have a read through the stickies at the top of each section as they will help you understand your degus needs. Also please feel free to ask any questions you need to, trust me, there are no silly questions when it comes to these lovable fluffs.

[tolisgoal]

I have lurked the forum for a while now so I'm basically caught up with the degu needs. Also the degus come from the same parents so if we're expecting pups that would be a bit unlucky.

Either way what do I do if one is indeed a female?

I can't afford a second large cage (both moneywise and spacewise). Should I give it back to the breeder and take a male one? I could maybe do that since it's still pretty early but I have kinda gotten used to the guys (and girls apparently).

(before I got them 2 weeks ago all degus lived together in the same cage at the breeders place, at least I think).

[deguconvert]

Hello Tolisgoal, and welcome to the forum! Good that you have been lurking and learning . . . still . . . ask your questions without hesitation. Like anything, hands on is not usually the same as what you read. There are lots of nuances that are hard to put into words.

I'm with Savvy, you do have both male and female. I learned the hard way, having purchased two new males to be companions to two older males that were deeply grieving the loss of their alpha colony leader. The two males that I picked up were said to be vet certified males, in a "male only" pet store. 90 days later we had two litters of six pups each. That was just the beginning of a population explosion that was huge and unexpected. Hearing that all the degus are living together tells me that this breeder does not have the sexes separated, and the likelihood that ALL the females in that group are pregnant is very high. I think he may incorrectly think the urethral cone is a penis, and therefore all the degus are male. He may not know how to tell the difference between the sexes. I think you need to have a conversation with the breeder. He needs to know that a population explosion is headed his way.

What you should do? Well . . . you could take back the male and get another female . . . but . . . PUPS!! You can give back the female and get another male . . . but make sure you are there to ensure it is a male. Maybe take with you the male you have and see how he gets along with the male you choose? You could have the male you have neutered and keep the female . . . but you could still have a litter of pups, and we don't know for sure if your female is or is not pregnant. Male and female pairs are the least likely to have conflict . . . but this isn't quite so straight forward as that, is it.

Don't be afraid to chat it through here.

[tolisgoal]

Neutering would indeed be the best option but sadly in my country (Greece) neutering costs up to 300 euros especially for small animals and I really can't spare that money. I guess I will have to give the female back to the breeder and get another male (I've gotten more attached to the male and he likes being handled much more which is a plus). I'm not sure if he is keeping the males and females in the same cage, though I imagine he is since he gave me both genders. I will notify him about the population boom as you said. It's sad that I'll have to separate them, I've grown to like them together but I rl don't see any other option that would solve my problem. I guess I should start looking into introducing degus.
Oh about the introducing part actually, since they were together since they were born will this make it easier? They've been apart from their kin for about 2 weeks now, so is there a chance they remember each other, or will it go purely by their smell and instincts?

Thank you for your help, I really appreciate it. These two are actually my first pets, as my family was never into pets, so this is kind of the first big problem I've run into so far.

Edit: Also how did you end up handling your population explosion?

Extra edit: I will probably call the breeder tomorrow to arrange all that, should I separate the 2 now or is it ok to leave them as is until tomorrow? So far I've never noticed them doing any mating and I haven't heard the "bark" they supposedly make after mating at all, so I might still be safe?

[deguconvert]

Leaving them together until the female is returned isn't an issue at this point . . . if she has been living with males prior to coming to your home, and while in your home, the opportunity to mate has been present all this time. No need to cause them the pain of separation, that will come soon enough.

How did I deal with the population explosion? Well, first off, when I was at the pet store looking for young males, they had about 50 young pups in a deep, open topped glass terrarium. These were all supposed to be male, but every one that I picked up looked like a female to me. Now, I had only had males, had never seen the genitals of a female degu in person, and these were Vet certified as male. I figured I must be such a novice that I was wrong. Brought home the two "most male" that I could find, and the introductions went SO GOOD. I figured the older guys were so lonely they just clicked with the younger guys. 90 days in . . . we noticed that the young ones were sticking pretty close to their nest, but didn't think of it. A day or two later, my daughter was looking in the cage and trying to entice the young guys out for a visit, when a tiny little degu ran out of the nest!! MOM!!! That's when we counted the days, and realized that mating had occurred almost immediately, and THAT'S why they bonded so quickly. They had also had enough time to mate again. My cage was a home build, and I needed to build another for the males. Which I did within about a month. At six weeks of age we separated the male pups, and took them back to the pet store, because they, and their vet, were at fault. 90 days from the first birth, two more litters were born. At six weeks we again separated the sexes and took them to the store. BUT one tiny male had managed to escape the round up, and a couple of days later we found him hiding in one of our closets, not far from the cage. We put him in with the females and we separated an area in the old boys cage to start introductions . . . but they did NOT like him at all and I feared for his safety, so I had to do a more comprehensive separation to give appropriate spacing to all of them. He stayed with the girls for about two weeks, and when he went into his own secured space, he was just 8 weeks old.

About 90 days later . . . all of our girls . . . which we easily recognized by this time were pregnant . . . began delivering their litters . . . over 40 pups. We worked hard to find homes for them, and most of them were placed, and the remaining few we took to the SPCA, donating another cage I had built to go with them. This took a year from start to finish. Counting the dates . . . the pup would have been about 7 weeks when he did the deed with all the girls. That was completely unexpected. We knew that females could be impregnated as early as 6 weeks of age, but we had no idea that a male pup was also capable of doing the deed. There was no information on the web that I had found or seen that revealed this fact. While we REALLY LOVED all the pups, the cost to feed them was significant, they EAT like crazy! They are also supreme escape artists with teeth they are COMPELLED to use . . . ON EVERYTHING. That is also costly. And in those numbers . . . they are very messy. My husband was SO DONE with degus by the end of that year. It is not an experience I would wish on anyone. They are such lovely animals, but caring for large numbers of them is really difficult, and it isn't fair or good for them or their owner to go through the huge challenges that come with those rapidly increasing numbers.

I DO NOT DOUBT my ability to identify the sexes anymore!

[moletteuk]

If you would prefer not to have more degus with more cages, then I would recommend you swap the female for another male.

[tolisgoal]

I have talked to the breeder and I will indeed swap out the female for a male soon. The little guys have rl gotten used to each other so it will be sad to see her go but yeah I can't handle the other option so it has to be done. About the introduction of the new degu, as I said they come from the same parents and lived together for 6 months now, before I took them to my place 2 weeks ago. Will they remember each other and perhaps have an easier introduction? I guess I will find out myself and update this post when I get the new guy but any opinions on this would be appreciated.
Thank you again for all your help I will keep you updated!

[savvy]

Its really hard to say how they will get on, they might be buddies who have missed each other, but they may also not have gotten on well when they were together. Degus have such a complex hierarchy its impossible to say what will happen.

Take the reintroduction slowly, and in a neutral space, don't just pop the new one in the cage with the other.

Would it be possible for you to take your male with you to the breeder so you can observe various interactions with a potential new cage mate? That may give you a clearer idea of who he'll get on with.

[moletteuk]

Your boy might be a little upset at having his female partner swapped for a male. I agree with Savvy's idea that it would be a good idea to take your boy and somehow try to allow him to pick his new male partner, if at all possible.

[tolisgoal]

I have no problem carrying both over, though I am not sure since I haven't asked the breeder yet. I will call him and say I would like to do that. Great idea!

[savvy]

It makes life easier if he can choose his cage mate.

[tolisgoal]

Man I can't do this the little guys made a little nest today and they were hugging all day long. I'm thinking of DIYing a cage on top of my current cage and just separating them after the litter comes (males/females). If the litter is big I may have a problem I may look into giving them up for adoption. I found a local hardware store that sells cage-like metal mesh so I can probably make a decent cage on top of the current one and maybe get them out for playtime together.

Do you think it's a good idea or will I not be able to handle the litter and (I'm guessing) 8 degus since I'm relatively inexperienced with them?

Edit: Also is it even a good idea to keep both male and female degus at the same time, even in different cages? Will they fight each other if I get them out for playtime?

Edit 2: I just noticed my male trying to hump the female, and the female got annoyed and didn't let him. Does this indicate anything useful?

Edit 3: They are currently boxing over it.

Edit 4: I had to remove 1 of them some time ago as the male one had flipped the female and was headfirst in her privates, they have since returned to their normal activities.

[deguconvert]

Awww! They definitely have a very lovely bond!

Can you share some photos with us? I'm wondering if she is already pregnant, but gestation is at the most 90 days, and it doesn't become obvious until she is into the last 30 days. At that point you will see the weight gain, and she can start to look like she has swallowed a golf ball, which will continue to grow until she looks like she has swallowed a tennis ball.

I kept males in one cage and females in another cage below the males, and there were no difficulties. If you wait to separate them until after the pups are born, you will almost be guaranteed to have a second, back to back litter. Female degus are most fertile in the hours and first days following the delivery of a litter. She will be highly receptive to mating, and the male will be more than obliging. That is how my second litter came to be. We didn't know the girls were pregnant the first time, and didn't know there were pups until they were likely a day or two old, which gave ample time for mating to succeed. Separating them before she delivers is crucial, and if she is not pregnant and you want to prevent a pregnancy, then you need to do that ASAP. But, it is hard determine if a degu is pregnant during the first 50 - 60 days.

[savvy]

OK, I'm going to try to address your concerns in order.

You can keep males and females in separate cages without too many problems, as long as they can't reach each other.

You will need to remove the male before the pups are born. He won't hurt them, but the female is at her most fertile just after she's given birth. Gestation is approx 90 days, so you'll be more experiencedby then. Most litters are about 4, although they can have up to 8. Consider your options if she only has 1, or they are all the same sex.

Separating the cage is a good idea as long as the cage is big enough. We can advise on this later.

Do not let them out together at any point or you may have another litter. Keep the sexes separate!

Humping and boxing are dominance issues, they are trying to sort out who is going to be the one in charge. Unless the fighting escalates or there are injuries, you don't have to intervene as they need to sort this out for themselves.

Edit: his head in her privates is not the body part you need to worry about.  It sounds like low level dominance fighting.

[savvy]

Sorry deguconvert we cross posted.

[tolisgoal]

To all replies:
I see. Ok. I could seperate them right now and put one in the smaller box I have to transfer them for the night. If I seperate them right now though won't they get lonely? On the other hand if she is indeed pregnant I guess that will solve itself. But then I guess I can seperate them anyway and if she is not pregnant try to introduce 1 of each gender to each cage (once I DIY the cage which will probably be tomorrow)?
Well that's a lot of stuff.

Trying to make my questions a bit more clear:
1) Should I separate them right now to avoid risk of pregnancy in case she isn't pregnant yet, then put her on the top cage (which as I said I will make tomorrow I have a pretty good idea on how I will do it)?
2) If she is not pregnant, I end up with 2 lonely degus right? (I have a lot of free time so I play with them daily but still)

If she is pregnant, funnily enough it auto-solves problem 2, but I end up with a litter, which I can sort into 2 cages, hopefully not misgender them and end up with a degupocalypse

Degu status: They are doing their normal deguing, with occasional breaks of the male chasing the female and then the female getting annoyed and chasing him instead.

To deguconvert:
I see, ok if I see visible signs of pregnancy I will separate them before the litter arrives, thanks for the tip that could have gone bad (I may separate them from today depending on what you advise me here).
I will also look to post some pictures so you can see something other than their genitals XD.

To savvy:
I could separate the cage with the same mesh and then build the cage on top without worrying about the goos below doing mischief. Good idea! Also sexes separate even on playtime got it. About the humping it was more the guy going for the girl and the girl just geting annoyed and chasing him around after. He hadn't that done until now (at least I haven't seen him and I'm around him most of the day) and they were very vocal about it so I would have probably noticed unless they did it with the lights out at night.

Pretty confusing situation, I really appreciate the extra brain power and advice, thank you for your effort.

[savvy]

I had two single (separate cages) male and female, living side by side without issues. However, what I did notice is that when the female is on heat, she's the one who does the chasing.

Personally, I'd leave them together to allow yourself time to build the cage. The mesh floors will have to be covered to prevent bumblefoot, you'll need a wheel, water bottle etc; it takes time to get a cage together, especially if pups are going to be involved.

At 6 months old, degus enter adolescence, it lasts until they are about 18 months and their hormones are all over the place. Think stropy teenagers. During this time they will bicker, fall out, make up again, sulk, be the best of friends and carry this behaviour on and on. It's a very trying time for all concerned and all degus go through it. You just have to let them get on with it unless they draw blood - that's when you step in the stop it.

*apologies for part post, had to change device due to battery.

[tolisgoal]

I haven't gotten scared of their bickering, as they never got aggressive enough to scare me with bites and stuff, plus they cuddle up fast later on. About leaving them together, like next to each other in a separated cage or as they have always been. I've been thinking about the fact that the female might be pregnant that I haven't rl thought what I will do if she isn't (since I will have to separate them either way). I don't imagine there's a non-vet way to check for pregnancy other than just looking for a swollen belly right?

Also here's pics of the goos:

-Female named Mpala scratching her face in pic, which is read Bala in Greece and means ball (she was pretty shy and all she did was move to a random spot and become a ball for the first week or so). -

- Male named Rhaast, name is from a game but I don't even play it anymore, I just really liked the name and it stuck -

- And here are various photos of how they usually cuddle of when they get tired (They are like this right now!) -

To catch you before you mention the dangerous wheel, I know, I'm working on getting a new one soon and I will have to get 2 anyway when I separate them, this is the one the cage came with for now, they're still pretty small and seem ok using it.

For now I have added paper padding inbetween the bars pretty much the day I got the cage(great idea from a youtube vid), they nibbled some corners a bit but quit it within the same day and have been using the wheel ok since.