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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 19:06:26 GMT
Suti's had a really worrisome accident, and now I'm not sure what to think about it...
They were playing out in the kitchen, and she somehow managed to rush under me from literally across the room the moment I was sitting down on the floor. I managed to catch most of my weight, but I'm still fairly certain I heard some sort of a cracking noise. It took me a while to get her out from under the radiator and check her, but I can't really find any damage on her. She's mobile and moves well and her ribs and other bones all feel in order. But something's wrong with her mouth area. She's trying to eat but having a really hard time doing it...
I don't really understand what the problem is. She's intrested in food and takes seeds in her mouth, but she just... teeths against them and doesn't seem to be able to bite down. She just keeps spinning them around and then paws at her mouth as if something's the matter. But from all I've seen, her jaw is intact, and it moves just fine, and she expresses no pain at all no matter how much I poke, prod or examine her. And yet she doesn't seem to be able to eat normally. It's as if she's confused about it herself, too...
I'm really not sure what to do now. I can't even contact a vet before monday. I have some CC at least, so I can give her liquid food if she can't eat otherwise, but this is really distressing. I really don't understand what happened with the whole thing. She's totally normal now, possibly a bit dejected after she got scared, and I cannot find any obvious issues. Her incisors look normal too, like they were before, so I don't think they got snapped either. But something is obviously wrong...
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Post by savvy on Mar 5, 2022 19:13:03 GMT
Can you get a look inside her mouth to see if there is anything stuck inside?
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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 19:16:55 GMT
I've been trying to take a look, but it's really hard to get in there past the incisors. I think her molars might be damaged in some way. She keeps putting things in her mouth, and can hold onto them really strong with her incisors, but even if it's something really small and fine like an oat, she pushes it back out and paws at her cheeks.
That would make sense, if she got trapped in such a way that her jaws pushed together. She does not seem to be in pain, but it's obviously causing her trouble...
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Post by savvy on Mar 5, 2022 19:22:07 GMT
I think you're going to have to get her to a vet, just in case she has broken a tooth or something. Is there an emergency vet you can get to? It does sound like there's something not right in her mouth.
Also, accidents happen, especially with superfast degus, so don't beat yourself up.
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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 19:30:07 GMT
I'm afraid there's no emergency vet that knows anything about degus available. I'll try to see if she can get CC and fluids in her. That way she can at least hang on until Monday.
It's really strange. There does not seem to be any sort of pain there. It's more like something's weird in her mouth so she's not sure how to eat any more. But even when I directly feel her cheeks and pry her mouth open, she doesn't seem to be under any distress. It didn't even seem like she got actually hurt when the accident happened. I heard no pain noises at all. She just ran away really scared and quick...
I'm almost wondering if she's just perturbed and doesn't feel safe eating right now. I'll keep monitoring her. But at least nothing seems to be seriously wrong with her basic functions, which is a small blessing...
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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 19:44:57 GMT
She ate some of the CC, but was not all that intrested in it. Hard to say, but at least she can take it in. She's behaving somewhat sullen. It might be that there's some sort of pain...
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 5, 2022 21:02:58 GMT
Oh, Teemu! That is scary! I'm so sorry, as I know you love them so much and are careful with them. I hope good things for her!
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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 21:08:09 GMT
Thank you. She is very sullen right now and has withdrawn to the heatpad. It's starting to be late here, so it's not unusual, but she is rather withdrawn and behaves as if in pain. She ate some more, and I made a gruel by grinding her pellets in with water, and she's been nibbling at it every now and then.
I've checked her over multiple times and very carefully felt out her ribcage and other areas, and compared with the other degus. I genuinely do think that nothing in her body is broken, other than something in her mouth area. But her jaw seems to be okay too. She can hold onto seeds very well with her front teeth, and would not let go when I tested taking one from her. It's just that something in her mouth is either broken or hurting.
In a best case scenario, her teeth somehow caused a wound in her mouth, and it'll heal, and she is mostly just scared and grumpy from the discomfort. A worse case would likely be that her molars really are broken...
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Post by savvy on Mar 5, 2022 21:18:01 GMT
Do you have any metacam you can give her?
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Post by teemu on Mar 5, 2022 22:15:33 GMT
I was able to get some metacam from my mother who lives nearby. It meant for dogs, so I am uncertain how much I should give. From what I can see, the dosage is very small, like a single drop at most? The strength of it is 1.5mg/ml, which is stronger than cat dosage that usually seems to be administered to degus. Suti is still about the same. She has trouble eating but did take CC when I gave some with a syringe. I noticed that her tail seems really... twisted. She does not express pain when it is handled, but it is unnaturally loose and bends without resistance. I think it was somehow her tail that broke earlier (or at least it broke as well). Really unsure what to think about this right now. I will keep monitoring her.
(I am actually starting to think that degus might not express acute pain unless it is absolutely distressing, which makes gauging all this harder. According to reports I've seen and my own experiences, they will do their hardest to not show any acute weakness, even when something has literally come off...)
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 6, 2022 7:19:19 GMT
Very true, Teemu. They do not show any form of pain or weakness because that makes them even more of a target to predators.
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Post by winic1 on Mar 6, 2022 8:12:44 GMT
Do you know what the strength of cat metacam is? You could then adjust the dose of the dog metacam accordingly, like, if dog metacam is 3 times as strong as cat metacam, you would give only 1/3 of the usual dosage of the cat metacam. But then you also need to know the usual dosage of cat metacam, and I'm afraid I can't help you with that.
If the amount is very tiny, it would be best to get a syringe that can measure the very tiny amount accurately. Or, make a dilution of the medicine, mixing a small amount in a measured amount of water, so then you could give an amount that would be easier to measure. But you need to know dosage amounts to begin with, so I'm guessing none of this is going to help you much. sorry.
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 9:37:44 GMT
I found some older topics on the forum that would indicate that cat-strength metacam has been given in doses of 1-2 drops. Metacam for cats is 0.5mg/ml, so three times weaker. So I should probably dilute dog metacam to a third of the strength and give one drop of that (or put one drop in a larger amount of fluid, mex well, and give one third of that).
Does this seems correct to people with experience in these things?
Suti is largely like she was yesterday, sullen and withdrawn and cannot eat properly. She tries, though, and is mobile, and it really does look like her mouth is the only real problem spot.
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 9:59:14 GMT
She certainly has energy and mobility. It was a real struggle to get any CC into her, since she really does not seem to like the stuff (or eating is simply too painful right now and she'd prefer not to eat anything at all, which is not an option with animals of this type). So that is at least a positive sign.
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 10:13:58 GMT
Very true, Teemu. They do not show any form of pain or weakness because that makes them even more of a target to predators.
Yes. Though it seems to me that degus are somehow even tougher than most rodents in similar situations. I've had many kinds of rodents, and they seem a lot more susceptible to pain. Rats complain and cry out much more readily, for example. Degus often behave almost as if they did not have pain responses. I have seen them sometimes, like when Munkki tore up Pulla's ear, and he spent many hours fussing and complaining in their nest, but that had the social aspect to it. When degus actually get hurt, it just seems to be the initial shock, and after that they're very quiet about it and don't really seem to react to pain.
At one point, I found an article about a very young degu pup that had gotten his leg mangled horribly in an accident in the cage and had to have it amputated. The leg was almost off and torn really badly, and this did not seem to actually affect the pup visibly at all.
I'm certain they feel pain, but they seem to have a really muted acute reaction to it (that is, they do not make noise, or react strongly to feeling it). They seem much more likely to become sullen and withdrawn. All of that makes it really hard to gauge what might be wrong or how serious it is, other than inferring from their general behavior.
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 12:58:19 GMT
Gave Suti a small dose of Metacam now, hopefully it eases her a bit. It really is weird. When I force her to eat the CC (I mixed the Metacam into it), her mouth works totally fine, I feel her jaws functioning normally, her tongue even comes out to lick anything on her lips. It really must be either a wound in her mouth or something wrong with the molars. I can see her swiping at her mouth, in a similar way to how degus do when they have teeth issues. She wants to eat (my wife tried to offer them dry leaves in the morning and she took some, but just could not actually do it), and she uses her incisors just fine. But something is preventing her from actually eating. She just sits there with a seed or a leaf in hand and looks dejected about it.
This is unpleasant, of course, but I think all things considered if this was all that happened it really might be a silver lining. I'm not sure if they can do anything about broken teeth, or if that will end up being an essential death sentence, but a wound at least would heal fine...
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Post by hpdegus on Mar 6, 2022 12:59:54 GMT
So sorry this happened! They move so so fast.
As to metacam, my vet always gives me the dog strength version (1.5 mg/mL). For my degus (180-250g) I'm supposed to give 1 drop (0.03 mL) once a day. I usually put this on two rice puffs and split the dose so I can give morning and night though.
When Ollie was doing really poorly at the end, we actually went as high as three drops a day (apparently the absolute maximum for very short time periods).
And yes, its very distinct how they hide pain. Most of the time I feel like I'm trying to read very subtle body language, like are your eyes slightly more closed than yesterday?
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 13:43:44 GMT
So sorry this happened! They move so so fast. As to metacam, my vet always gives me the dog strength version (1.5 mg/mL). For my degus (180-250g) I'm supposed to give 1 drop (0.03 mL) once a day. I usually put this on two rice puffs and split the dose so I can give morning and night though. When Ollie was doing really poorly at the end, we actually went as high as three drops a day (apparently the absolute maximum for very short time periods). And yes, its very distinct how they hide pain. Most of the time I feel like I'm trying to read very subtle body language, like are tour eyes slightly more closed than yesterday? Thank you for the input! I gave her a pretty small dose (essentially diluted to 1/3 drop), but it's good to know that she can take a bit more per day if there is need. I'll be able to call the vet tomorrow, but I'll keep monitoring her and give her another small dose later if it seems like she needs it.
I think the tip of her tail is also broken (I have no idea how it could have happened, but about a thumb-width's worth of length at the end is crooked and juts out at a strange angle and does not move with the rest), but it's doubtful that this is causing her eating issues. She also seems to be scared of me now, which is really hearbreaking. She obviously feels that I've betrayed her trust and hurt her. But hopefully things will get better soon.
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Post by teemu on Mar 6, 2022 13:46:15 GMT
Limppu is really protective of her now. She obviously realises that something is wrong and spends a lot of time consoling and comforting her. She even drove my hand away when I checked up on her just now and Suti was obviously uncomfortable with it. It's weird how she seems so dense sometimes and obviously has some issues understanding how things work, but is also very intuitive about situations such as this.
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Post by winic1 on Mar 6, 2022 15:31:23 GMT
instead of critical care, how about vegetable only baby food or oatmeal made really mushy? Something that gets nutrition and water into her, and tastes good enough that she likes it. Quality of nutrition is less important than just keeping her going.
I wonder if she maybe cracked a molar or two by getting her jaw/head slammed down, so you can't detect the problem and it seems like everything works, until she tries to actually use her teeth?
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