Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Feb 23, 2022 10:03:05 GMT
Thank you so much for working out that dosage, moletteuk! It's greatly appreciated!
The Vitamin D drops arrived yesterday and I'm going to give the first dose later today.
(You're right; I looked on the packaging of the Nature's Touch bag and it has Vitamin D written as 670 IU/Kg.)
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jul 22, 2022 14:13:09 GMT
An update about Alice:
She lasted six months until she needed another visit to the vet. Since her dental in late January, she got on better with her mouth and put on some weight, peaking at about 223g. (The maximum I’ve ever recorded for her is about 230g; she has always been a bit on the small side.) I could see physically that she was flourishing; her fur seemed to get thicker and she felt nice and plump all over her body.
However, over the last three weeks, I noticed her losing weight, looking a bit gaunt and her mouth getting more and more dribbly. I got her a consultation and the vet was able to see with his mirror (?) that a spur was growing towards her tongue. At the dental, they also discovered two loose and rotten teeth and removed them. She has lost five teeth now (two from an abscess and one that went mysteriously missing). I’m concerned about this since the vet I saw back in December/January said that I should consider euthanasia if she needed more teeth removing. And why are her teeth going bad!? She also had an X-Ray this visit, though the vet hasn't spoken to me about what they found.
Alice had the dental yesterday and I’ve been trying to syringe feed her Critical Care since then, but she’s been fighting like mad even wrapped up in a towel. I put a dish of naughty food in her cage (such as seeds and cereal type things from a plant mix bag, etc), which she has been picking at on and off all day. I have kept her separated from her friends just for the day so she can eat at leisure without them stealing it all (Spoiler: Since I last posted here, I was able to introduce two young pups to my adults, but it took a couple of months!)
I have still been giving her the Vitamin D drops, though I’m doing one drop every two weeks. This is because I’ve stopped giving my degus Nature’s Touch and doubled the amount of Science Selective pellets I give them to compensate, which offers a lot more Vitamin D. A big part of the reason why I picked Nature’s Touch to feed to them were the plants, etc, included in the mix, but the quality and quantity of these pieces seem to have diminished over the last few bags. I decided I was better off buying more of a variety of dried plants and mixing these with the hard feed instead.
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Post by bouncy on Jul 22, 2022 15:38:44 GMT
She's becoming a bit toothy!
Honestly, I don't see why she shouldn't carry on living, with critical care for her diet. Make it the consistency of toothpaste, and place it in a shallow dish, and she should be able to feed herself! It could be that your handling when she's stressed is making her fight more.
I wish you both luck, and hope to hear she's picked up again!
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 22, 2022 18:26:17 GMT
I think since she bounced back so well last time that is good reason to be positive about her recovery after this dental treatment. I think vets vary a lot in their optimism about teeth issues, I would let Alice guide you, especially if you are prepared to be flexible on what you feed her. 6 months isn't bad at all between dentals, especially for quite severe dental trouble, I don't have any answers as to why the teeth might be becoming loose or going bad, there is probably a genetic component since most degus are eating similar diets and none of them eat sugar to directly cause decay. I would weigh weekly if you can so you can catch any future trouble as quick as possible. Do follow up on the xray too - if there is any root overgrowth it might be worth trying metacam now or later if pain starts to come into play, most degus do really well on metacam long term for root overgrowth.
You could probably experiment mixing Critical Care with other things like baby food or peanut butter to try and find a mix she eats voluntarily, or Supreme Recovery Plus is a different brand of the same stuff that I presume tastes different.
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Post by bouncy on Jul 23, 2022 0:55:51 GMT
That's a point! I mix critical care 50:50 with ground almonds!
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Nov 15, 2022 11:39:08 GMT
Belated thanks for the messages, especially the feeding advice! I've tried a few of your suggestions, but Alice seems to hate anything that is soft and wet. I will keep trying, because she also hates being force fed.
After her dental back in July, she recovered well and her weight even peaked at 230g, which is the maximum I've recorded for her. She did need another dental this month after her weight dropped from 230g to 205g in a course of a week or so. The vet (a different one this time) was also pretty negative, saying he could see her needing more regular trims and telling me to consider if this is kind to her (basically saying I should put her to sleep if it gets too frequent). Her lower teeth roots are also starting to “reshape the mouth”, to use his words.
This dental was back on the 3rd Nov. I was told to keep her on metacam for five days, but I extended it because I could see that she was in some discomfort with her mouth. I've taken her off now, but she is still showing signs of discomfort. She is still energetic, alert, begging me for treats and eating hard food, though selective with what she picks. Her weight was between 206g - 208g, but is fluctuating now between 201g - 204g. In light of what moletteuk put in her last post, I wonder if she needs to be on metacam long term if the roots are starting to cause issues?
I've arranged to talk over the phone to the vet tomorrow, which I'm not looking forward to; they always leave me feeling like I'm being cruel by keeping Alice alive. I thought I would post here in case you knowledgeable people had any suggestions what else I should ask?
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Post by savvy on Nov 15, 2022 12:18:38 GMT
I have two degus on long term meloxidyl, one on dog strength 0.2ml daily for overgrown molar roots, and one on 0.3ml daily for a growth in her mouth. Both have been on meloxidyl for several weeks, in the case of the growth, several months.
Degus can tolerate metacam (also called meloxidyl or loxicom) over extended periods of time, my vet said they tolerate it much better than cats as they metabolise it pretty well.
Would it be possible to change your vet? Or at least get a second opinion?
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 15, 2022 17:09:28 GMT
Is there anyone at the vets you prefer that you could speak to?
We have loads of degus on the forum with long term dental issues, it's pretty much standard to put them on permanent metacam once the roots are involved. I think I would frame it with the vet that if they advise putting to sleep you have nothing to lose by trying metacam first. You are perfectly in your rights to ignore their advice on PTS, you are by far the best person to decide on quality of life and some vets do still place lower value on the lives of small furry pets, which is completely out of order.
Ask for branded metacam in dog strength if you can, degus will often take this voluntarily.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 15, 2022 23:14:56 GMT
Ditto to both Savvy and Moletteuk.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Nov 16, 2022 16:15:37 GMT
I'm sorry to hear your two degus need to take meloxidyl/metacam, Savvy. That's interesting about the dosage; I was prescribed 0.07ml of metacam (it is the branded dog strength one). Do the vets work it out through body weight? I wondered if Alice could have done with a higher dosage because she still fussed with her mouth a bit when she was on it.
Since posting yesterday, Alice appears to have turned a corner and isn't showing as much discomfort! I watched her sit at her food bowl this morning, eating nugget after nugget. She had been eating them sporadically and tentatively before, but is a lot faster today. This afternoon she has been looking for hidden ones. I'm still waiting to talk to the vet.
There are definitely other vets I could try at the same practice, but I might research other exotic vets nearby. I've only ever used this practice so it would be good to compare others and get different opinions/mindsets.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 16, 2022 16:51:34 GMT
I'm pleased she's turned a corner Yes, metacam dosage is based on body weight. There is quite a big range in dosages of metacam prescribed by vets, the 0.07ml is reasonable, but you do have scope to increase it, and you can always experiment with dose longer term if she stays on it to find the lowest effective dose.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 16, 2022 23:21:45 GMT
So glad to hear that she is keen on her food today, and really is doing so much better!! Wonderful news!
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Post by savvy on Nov 17, 2022 0:20:55 GMT
Glad to hear she's doing better.
When I checked my diary, Sphene has been on 0.3ml daily for about 7 months now. She takes it with no problem. If Alice needs to go on it full time, they do start to accept being medicated as part of their daily routine and will willingly take it. Its not the chore it is at the beginning, but they still have their moments.
It can be very hit and miss with vets when it comes to treating degus, some don't like 'pocket' pets, some treat them but aren't sure what they're doing and some are absolutely brilliant. Its finding the brilliant one that's hard and it can be worth travelling to one further out. Have you checked our vet list to see if there's one on there who you can approach?
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jun 21, 2023 16:02:49 GMT
Hi there! I thought I’d give an update on Alice: She went from November until this month before she needed another dental. I requested an x-ray because it had been just under a year since the last one. Everything went smoothly with the anesthesia and dental work, but the x-ray revealed some severe changes. Her tooth roots are a mess and causing her teeth to fracture or snap off easily. The roots are not interfering with her jawbone, but she appears to be missing part of a bone in the upper part of her face!? The vet reckons it was destroyed by abscesses, or abscesses might be forming. (Note: I may be paraphrasing badly.) She is on Metacam long term now. Have you heard of any degus with issues like these? Is there anything else I could do for her or is it just a case of keeping her comfortable for as long as possible? Despite her problems, she has still been her usual feisty self over the last 7 - 8 months, claiming the best food for herself and treating her other degu companions as her servants and comfortable pillows. I decided to stick with the same exotic vets for now because the others are so far away from my location, though I’ll go to one if I need a second opinion. The vets weren’t quite so negative this time, likely because she made it 6+ months before her next dental, although the bone thing sounds awful to me!
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 22, 2023 19:27:43 GMT
Dental stuff isn't really my field, but I think it all comes down to quality of life, so if she is good with the metacam and still enjoying life, then that's fine and the most important thing. Do watch out for signs of decline, but try not to worry. We have had degus on the forum with dental issues where the teeth are loose on inspection, so I wonder if that is due to structural changes in the teeth leading to breakages, and what Alice's xray showed. Spurs and overgrown roots do tend to come with abnormal chemical make up of the teeth, and more severe dental disease does tend to cause abscesses, so this sounds like a reasonable theory. Some vets give longer courses or ongoing antibiotics if they know there is a dental abscess, but that can cause other issues, so is difficult if you can only assume an abscess by xray. It's great that she has gone 6+ months between dentals
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Post by bouncy on Jun 23, 2023 16:41:23 GMT
I've not come across bone degeneration as a direct result of an abscess, more that the infection resulting in the abscess has led to the bone damage. I have come across this in the form of degu MRSA in a foot. This led to the amputation of the leg
I've had degus with root issues on long-term metacam. They've happily lived on for years, and it wasn't the cause of death when they finally passed. The only thing I would say is that you should keep an eye on the remaining teeth. If they break easily, it's possible you may need to keep a soft food alternative to hand.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jul 25, 2023 13:36:53 GMT
Thank you, moletteuk and bouncy, for your insightful posts! I remember reading the thread about the degu who lost his leg, bless him. It must have been such a stressful time for you. That's reassuring to hear about your degus living well on long term metacam. The vet mentioned the possibility of it shortening Alice's life, though what has she got to lose? Her teeth have been condemned by the vets several times! I'm happy to report that she is still in high spirits and eating well. Fingers crossed it will continue...
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Post by bouncy on Jul 26, 2023 12:46:21 GMT
You'll know when she's had enough, so just keep going as you are!
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