Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jan 26, 2022 10:56:42 GMT
Hi all! I'm sorry for losing contact with this group! I hope you've all been keeping safe and healthy over these surreal and troubling couple of years (and your degus, too!). I don't know if you'll remember me but I had three degus last time I was posting on this forum and had just introduced my elderly neutered male (Alex) to two young females after he lost his previous female companions (Annie from a tumour and Daisy from an unknown illness). Sadly, after living happily with the youngsters for a year or so, he deteriorated rapidly without warning one day and I had to have him put to sleep. (He must've been eight or nine.) I have the two girls left (Lily and Alice) who are getting on for four years old now. (I've been looking for one or two more to adopt, but haven't had many pop up in my area.) I had to take Alice to the vet a month ago because of a wet mouth, which I read could be to do with teeth. It indeed turned out that she had spurs which needed treating, as well as a dental abscess. The vet removed the infected tooth, plus the one it rubbed against. Once she recovered from that, she was back to her normal self again. However, over the last couple of days, I've noticed her becoming wet around the mouth. She is very selective about what she eats (soft things only), paws at her mouth and grinds her teeth a bit. I've booked her in to see the vet today, though the appointment isn't until 3pm, so I'm sat here waiting in agony, lol. Do you think her teeth need trimming already!? Or, and my biggest fear, is that the abscess has spread to other teeth. During the post-op appointment, the vet said that he would suggest euthanasia if she needed more teeth removed. Has anyone here had degus or heard of people with degus that have had dental abscesses?
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Post by savvy on Jan 26, 2022 11:41:40 GMT
Its great to hear from you again, but not so great to hear you've lost Alex, 8 is a good age for a degu. It is possible for Alice to need a dental so quickly, degus teeth grow at the rate of 1mm per day so if she's being selective about eating it sounds like its a spur. Its vital to remember that you can always seek a second opinion from a different vet if you have any concerns or doubts about the treatment your current vet has recommended. This can be at a different surgery if you want. There is nothing to tie you to one vet if you are unhappy. We've had loads of people on here who have had degus with dental issues as they are prone to it. I'm tagging a few who, if I remember correctly, have had problems with teeth and/or abcesses, bouncy, degulover21, moletteuk, deguconvertPlease let us know how you get on and how Alice is doing.
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Post by bouncy on Jan 26, 2022 15:41:00 GMT
Poor Alice! I still remember her as half of the two headed degu! Welcome back @rtho87! Dental issues shouldn't be a death sentence, it's all about management. I don't think we discussed before what you feed your guys? Have a read of this thread first. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21967/guide-degu-dental-healthYou may also consider reading this second thread, which was my own experiment. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21679/degu-dental-issues-results-experimentThe latter is my own experiment with Scaredygoo. He managed his dental issues for years, and it was a tumour that finally finished him off. If your finances can stretch to it, it's worth asking your vet for an x-ray next time you have Alice put under for a dental.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 26, 2022 16:17:27 GMT
In all but the most severe cases it is usually worth persevering with the dental work and trying some diet changes and introducing vitamin d supplementation to see where the treatment interval ends up and to see if it can be managed.
A second treatment after one month is rather soon though. It seems more likely that this would be from the abscess not fully healing and getting worse again, it wouldn't need to have spread, they are usually related to a spur rubbing on flesh so quite localised. Occasionally there will be a spur hidden at the back that the vet misses that then causes ongoing problems with a seemingly mysterious cause.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jan 26, 2022 16:38:18 GMT
Thanks so much for your messages, savvy, bouncy and moletteuk!
I'm back from the vet and have Alice booked in for a dental tomorrow. The vet didn't mention last time that when his colleague put Alice under to do her teeth that he found one was already missing!?!? How!?!? He thinks that it's a case of her teeth overgrowing because of having nothing for them to rub against (I was under the impression that they took out the bad tooth and the one that rubs against it, but it sounds more like they had to remove two bad teeth - I need to check this tomorrow). I'm not sure if my vet is bad at explaining things or if I get so disorientated by vet trips that I don't take things in well! Perhaps a bit of both?
Thanks for the links, bouncy. I've lurked the Guide to Degu Health many times and have always found it a reassuring read. I'll check your thread out for sure! I'm very sorry to hear that a tumour got to Scaredygoo in the end.
I feed my degus Science Selective nuggets, the seed mix from RatRations and Nature's Touch. They get unlimited plants and hay, but tend to prioritise the pellets. >_> I've read a little bit about the SAB diet, but have always been a bit intimidated by it (generally the supplementing vitamin D part). I will have to read up on it again and rejig their diet. I don't know if it'll do any good, but I bought a small UV lamp kit recently and am trying to work out how to attach it to the cage.
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Post by bouncy on Jan 26, 2022 16:57:49 GMT
You have the advantage with the Savic that you can just place the lamp dome down on top of the cage, perhaps over a favourite perch/shelf? They'll like to sit under the lamp because of the heat it generates
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 26, 2022 18:36:58 GMT
Diet sounds fine. My only suggestions would be to switch up the forage a bit to try to interest them a bit more, also things like kitchen herbs, dandelions and plantains (Plantago major and Plantago lanceolata common weeds) are particularly high in calcium so you could bear that in mind. I would probably add in a small amount of vitamin d supplement since Bouncy had such good results with it, we can help you figure out dosage if you are interested. With the lamp, bear in mind it needs to be quite close to where they hang out because the effectiveness drops away rapidly with distance.
It is difficult to take things in at the vet when you are stressed out. They are normally quite good about talking things over on the phone, so I would suggest that method of getting things straight, depending on if you see the vet face to face tomorrow and how that goes.
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Post by deguconvert on Jan 27, 2022 8:19:56 GMT
I am glad to see you again, Rtho87!! I've very sorry to hear that Alex is gone, but am delighted that his last year with the then young pups was a really good one!
I didn't actually have experience with dental issues with my lot . . . but Yasmin has a wealth of experience that she can contribute along side those that have already answered. I do not have more to add to what has been said . . . except that I do endorse the adding of a greater variety of forage, and some Vit D. Vit D not only helps with dental health, but with overall health, and is a great boost to the immune system. I think it is worth it to try it in moderation.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jan 27, 2022 15:39:50 GMT
Thank you three for the suggestions!
I'll try to switch up the forage as suggested. Admittedly, I have been leaning on the same kinds of dried plants for awhile now, which I think bores the degus. On the subject of hay, are there any brands that any of you would recommend? (My degus never seem that thrilled with anything I give them.)
I would definitely be interested in doing something regarding Vitamin D supplementing.
I had a call from a veterinary nurse earlier to tell me that Alice has come round well from the anaesthesia. They treated a few developing spurs, but didn't find anything particularly alarming going on with her mouth. If that doesn't resolve her wet mouth, they would like to X-Ray her jaw next, presumably to see if the roots are doing bad things.
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Post by bouncy on Jan 27, 2022 16:24:40 GMT
Degus are fickle when it comes to hay. I'd give them anything and everything they'll eat! For a while, mine would only eat hay cookies (compressed hay). At the moment, they love Great and Small meadow hay, and will happily eat it to the exclusion of their own forage.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 27, 2022 18:53:40 GMT
Let's hope one of the small spurs was bothering her and she'll do better now.
Hay is a nightmare, overall I had most success with Bob Martin cheap meadow hay bought in asda, but I tried all sorts and the problem was that they would eat one bag, but not the next of the same brand. At least with the Bob Martin I could afford to bin a batch if they didn't like it. Readigrass is worth a try if you can find it locally at a horse or farm pet supply place.
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Post by savvy on Jan 27, 2022 19:00:00 GMT
I've found VetUK hay to be one of the most welcome from my furry lot. Its cheap, so as moletteuk says, you don't mind having to chuck it if they don't like it. It comes in at less than £4 for 2.5kg.
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Post by yasmin on Jan 29, 2022 17:50:43 GMT
I have never had an issue with Oxbow Western Timothy Hay - every degu of mine eats it readily.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Jan 30, 2022 21:17:07 GMT
Thanks for the hay brands! I’ll write them down and look out for them in the shops. Readigrass sounds interesting as well. I currently have three different hays in rotation to try to keep the degus interested. While they do nibble at it, I fear they aren’t consistent enough. Since bringing Alice back from the vet, she has been nibbling on hay and plants, though I wish she’d nibble a bit more on them! Like last time, she isn’t eating hard feed at the moment, and is just burying it if I give it to her by hand. I’ve been offering her the “junk food" in the Rosewood Herbs Plus bag (which ironically my sister got me by mistake instead of the dandelion mix a couple of months ago) and she has been eating that happily. Here’s a photo of the sisters reuniting on Friday night (Alice on the right): I checked out bouncy’s thread (those are amazing results and really hopeful) and I’m wondering what vitamin D drops to get for Alice. I was thinking of putting them on a treat rather than in a water bottle, because I’m a bit too intimidated by supplements to involve Lily at the moment. Should I get these drops (I think they’re the ones bouncy mentioned)? I noticed it says 400 IU per drop, and cross referencing on Degus International, it says: “An alternative to tablets are drops. Pure solutions of vitamin D3 in oil (no alcoholic solutions!) are available in most countries, but it is imperative to use only solutions with 100 IU per drop. Of this, give 1 drop on a treat twice a week.” As a result, would the Boots drops be too much for one degu? Should I look for the Holland and Barrett ones moletteuk mentioned instead?
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Post by bouncy on Jan 31, 2022 2:05:16 GMT
I think you need to base your dosage on the proportion of bit D already added to your pellets.
You can easily start with one drop on a treat once a week and take it from there.
The ones you refer to are ones where I add four drops to each medium glass drinking bottle whenever I fill them. Once again, I'll emphasise that I don't feed any pellets, just 100% natural.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 31, 2022 10:18:06 GMT
Since you will need a reduced dose, I would think 100iu drops will be easiest. Whichever you get, there needs to be enough info on the packaging so that we can figure out the dose per drop, that's the main thing.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Feb 17, 2022 14:21:58 GMT
Thank you so much for your help. This reply is much later than I intended! I wondered about the Cytoplan Vitamin D3 Drops? Does this provide enough information? Link: www.cytoplan.co.uk/vitamin-d3-drops It is derived from lichen in case that's important.
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 17, 2022 16:22:01 GMT
Those drops would be good as it's very clear how the dosing works.
From looking at the dose rate in lots of food brands and the data available from scientific papers, we have deduced that a regular vitamin d dose rate is around 12 IU per day. Another degu group specialising in natural diets which require vitamin d supplementation recommends 25IU day. I tend to think that for a degu with dental disease, somewhere around the 20 IU per day is a good compromise between effectiveness and safety.
The next thing to do is to try to estimate what weight of nuggets your degu is currently eating per day so we can subtract that amount of vit d from the supplementation.
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Rtho87
Foraging Degu
Posts: 53
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Post by Rtho87 on Feb 19, 2022 15:23:50 GMT
When it comes to the commercial feed, I give my degus 3g each of the Science Selective pellets and 3g of Nature's Touch. (You're welcome to give feedback if you feel this is too much or too little (I've never been really sure and just judged it by their weights and how they respond to the food). They get the Ratrations seeds, plus unlimited hay and plants as well.) The degus do steal from each other's bowls or mutually decide to swap midway through a feeding, so I'm not sure if they're eating an equal amount of the hard feed.
In case you need this:
Science Selective info: Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A 37500 IU, Vitamin C 500mg, Vitamin D3 2000 IU, Iron (E1) 50 mg, Iodine (E2) 1.5 mg, Copper (E4) 7.5 mg, Manganese (E5) 30 mg, Zinc (E6) 100 mg, Selenium (E8) 0.25 mg.
Nature's Touch info: Nutritional Additives: Vitamin A 7.440IU/kg, Vitamin D3 6,70IU/kg, Vitamin E 18,60mg/kg, Vitamin C 710mg/kg, Lys 0,59%, Iron 181,42%, Iodine 0,80%, Cobalt 0,50%, Copper 5,95%, Manganese 60,48mg/kg, Zinc 77,87mg/kg, selenium 0,50mg/kg.
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 19, 2022 18:45:45 GMT
Degus should eat around 15g per day total food, including hay on a hay and pellet diet. So, yours are on about 50% pellets which is fine if they eat a good selection and amount of hay and forage and some seeds. 2000/1000x3=6 IU and 670/1000x3 = 2 IU (assuming that 6,70 means 670, can't find a reference that doesn't also have that written weirdly) So assuming your degus eat all or most of their pellets, they currently get 8 IU of vitamin d each per day.
The exact dose you want to try is up to, but I would suggest a total of somewhere around the 20 IU mark per day would be worth a trial. You may wish to give 25 IU for 3 or 4 months to get them topped up a bit quicker and then drop it to 20. So that would be a supplementation rate of 20 minus the 8 they currently get, so 12 IU supplement (or 17 IU if you want to do 25 total for a while.
The drops you show are 100 IU per drop, so one drop a week would give 100/7 days = 14 IU per day. That sounds sensible to me.
Let me know if there is anything you aren't following.
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