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Post by Xellie on Sept 25, 2021 10:05:05 GMT
She's still plucking hair off her cagemate and her legs. Currently she's living in a split cage set up with one friend on her side (who is slowly integrating back into the group). The vet thinks she is totally fine healthwise, so I'm wondering if this is a stress reaction to her cagemates. She overgrooms everyone when she was with them, so now I don't know if I should try keeping her on her own for a bit to see if she stops. It feels like a drastic thing to do, but if she's really so stressed...  |
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Post by savvy on Sept 25, 2021 14:05:34 GMT
This may not be a stress issue, this could be a security issue. Grooming is part of acceptance and submission, its possible she's trying to find her place in the hierarchy but overdoing it, especially if she's only just joined or rejoined.
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Post by teemu on Sept 25, 2021 17:30:05 GMT
Like Savvy says, grooming is a large part of socializing and hierarchy building in rodents (and many other animals). I'm not too familiar with how it works in degus, but rats, for example, have this thing where a dominant rat "Power grooms" the ones that are lower on the social ladder, which is when they hold down another rat and forcibly and roughly groom them. It could very well be that she's trying to assert herself on others. Or it might be less dominant, but she's still doing it too roughly.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 25, 2021 17:59:30 GMT
That's an interesting thought, Teemu! I have wondered occasionally what part grooming plays in dominance and hierarchy with degus. I haven't reached a conclusion yet.
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Post by Xellie on Sept 25, 2021 18:32:34 GMT
I didn't see any roughness from her, she was mostly doing it while in bed with them. It was happening before the separation too. The majority of the grooming behaviour was directed at Freya, who she loves to be with. The tiniest amount on Choca, who is now bullying her in every attempted re-introduction. She seems to be at the bottom of the hierarchy - she never mounts anyone and always submits. (Except when Choca throws herself at her full force, then it becomes very dangerous instantly, they try to go into FBOD). She's also the smallest.
It could be a fighting/introduction issue (maybe this topic belongs there).
But she does seem very scared to join the group, and she will hide away until she realises Choca is not there, and then she is happy.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 26, 2021 12:41:47 GMT
With my degus I tended to see them overgrooming when they were feeling insecure, they would spend extra time grooming the others if they wanted to reinforce their bonds and prove how nice and useful they were. Could it be she is overgrooming Freya to reinforce her bond with Freya? If she is having issues with Choca (and others) then her relationship with Freya is going to be super important to her.
I would certainly recommend against separating her from Freya because that is likely her biggest fear. The overgrooming is not doing any harm at all, you should only act on it in terms of what it tells you about her mental state.
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Post by Xellie on Sept 26, 2021 14:59:36 GMT
With my degus I tended to see them overgrooming when they were feeling insecure, they would spend extra time grooming the others if they wanted to reinforce their bonds and prove how nice and useful they were. Could it be she is overgrooming Freya to reinforce her bond with Freya? If she is having issues with Choca (and others) then her relationship with Freya is going to be super important to her. I would certainly recommend against separating her from Freya because that is likely her biggest fear. The overgrooming is not doing any harm at all, you should only act on it in terms of what it tells you about her mental state. Yeah, Initially I pulled her and Mocha from the group of 4, because last time it was Bryn instigating. But this time Choca is being real mean, and I think she's the one that needs time out. (mocha is also fighting with Mist) So right now, in split cage its Choca/Freya/Kara/Mist on the left and Mocha/Bryn on the right. Bryn is still plucking hair from Mocha's face and paws, as well as her own. Bryn is getting to spend a lot of time with Freya/Mist/Kara in the play pen, and I am thinking that I need to rethink the way I divided them when they were fighting. I have my hopes on riding out adolescence with them and that it will calm down, but it seems more and more unlikely that Bryn and Choca will integrate ever again. |
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 26, 2021 18:19:46 GMT
OK, I see now.
So, how would Mocha, Bryn and Freya be in one group, and then Choca, Kara & Mist in another? I think two stable groups of three would be a decent result if you are ready to set aside hopes of one group of six?
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Post by Xellie on Sept 26, 2021 23:53:15 GMT
Mist is very attached to Freya too. When she fights with Mocha, she runs to Freya who then stands guard. I'm considering 4 and 2 Freya/Bryn/Kara/Mist and then Mocha and Choca perhaps. I think in a new setup Choca would also bully mist. She's very set on being top degu (although nobody even bothers to challenge Kara since she's double everyone's size)
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 27, 2021 5:22:41 GMT
Three and three makes for nice even groupings, and I admit I was thinking along the same line as Moletteuk, but after reading your thoughts, I like what you say. It really can't hurt to give it a try with the four and two and see how things work out. You may find that they settle right in and are all much happier. Which would be WONDERFUL for you all!
Being that they are in the adolescent/young adult stage . . . the potential for further bouts of trouble is still there, so don't be too surprised if there are some bumps yet.
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 27, 2021 11:01:25 GMT
Would you be confident of Choca and Mocha being OK together long term?
It's a bit like rowing the fox and the hen to the other side of the river!
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Post by Xellie on Sept 27, 2021 16:12:22 GMT
Would you be confident of Choca and Mocha being OK together long term? It's a bit like rowing the fox and the hen to the other side of the river! To be honest, they're as bad as eachother, but I don't see them fight other than a bit of mounting in the play pen when they're meeting at the moment. Long term I'd love to get them all back together, but if this is the cause for Bryn to be pulling hairs - I think I either have to try finding an arrangement where she feels more comfortable, either until she settles down/gets past adolescence or perma. Mocha and Choca are the same age (Bryn and Freya are a month older); and the difference in energy level shows. |
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Post by Xellie on Sept 29, 2021 0:13:39 GMT
we had a decently good interaction today, with Freya/Kara/Mist/Choca/Bryn together in the play pen. It didn't erupt into an instant fight - lots of Bryn mounting choca, they were irritated, lots of tail swiping, but nothing vicious happened.
Adding Mocha to the mix caused a lot of chaos. Yesterday it was Mocha behaving better, today she was fighting everyone... And I finally know why nobody messes with Kara.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 29, 2021 5:30:06 GMT
So . . . Kara is an accomplished opponent?
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Post by Xellie on Sept 29, 2021 14:41:10 GMT
So . . . Kara is an accomplished opponent? Kara doesn't interact with the others in the playpen, at all. She spends most the time digging up the blanket underneath and looking for a way out. Most the time nobody really bothers her and she'll push them away if they try to escape the playpen in the corner she decides she owns. Occasionally she'll push them out of the wheel. Mocha decided to push her luck, and Kara instantly scratched her ear (pretty deep inside, so I have to keep an eye on this), and then, because she was so annoyed, she chased everyone out of that part of the pen and went back to digging. My priority now is to get Bryn back with Freya without upsetting the others too much. Mocha is doing nothing but making enemies it seems. |
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Post by Xellie on Sept 30, 2021 15:53:00 GMT
Mocha won't play nice with any of the others right now. Bryn is in playpen with everyone except choca and mocha and so happy, but I can't put mocha + anyone else together.
This really is one of those logic puzzles
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 30, 2021 18:05:25 GMT
Degus NEVER follow logic, at least not human logic, LOL!! They have their own laws of logic, and they are fiercely kept secret. I'm so sorry that Mocha is being so aggressive, but this is a very common issue during adolescence. Girls are usually less intense than the boys, but not always.
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Post by Xellie on Sept 30, 2021 20:53:28 GMT
Hopefully giving Bryn playtime with the rest of the family helps more than it causes issues. It feels like all the progress made over the last few weeks was undone, since mocha and choca are both just attacking others on sight at the moment.
Perhaps they're in heat and I need to give it a week.
Meanwhile the boys are fighting. But it's noisy as well as aggressive and mostly chasing. Nobody is getting hurt. They scream and chase around then cuddle up so I'm letting them work it out.
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Post by Xellie on Oct 13, 2021 19:04:48 GMT
Bryn is back with Freya, Mist and kara. The whole group seem very happy to be united. Choca and Mocha are living together (choca seems grumpy but she's still cuddling to Mocha.)
Now to see if Bryn's hair pulling slows down.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 19:20:49 GMT
I hope all goes VERY well and Bryn's feet will soon be furry again!
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