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Post by deguconvert on Oct 5, 2021 4:39:49 GMT
I am SO GLAD that human social interactions do not require the use of urine!!
I think you are right, Teemu. It does indeed sound like Posso has decided to submit. When our three boys were LOCKED in dominance fighting, I knew a huge change had come to pass when I saw Peekichew roll over in front of Reepicheep and humbly squeak. When Reep stepped past him, Peek jumped up and threw himself at Reeps' feet and did the same thing. This happened over and over for a few hours and finally Reep stopped and let Peek groom his chin while laying on his back at Reeps' feet. After that, Peek had about a week or two where suddenly he would momentarily question his commitment, and then after a very brief ping pong chase through the cage, he would come to his senses and beg for forgiveness again. After that, they were the best three buddies you could have ever seen together. Posso is exhibiting the same submission. This is GOOD!
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Post by teemu on Oct 9, 2021 19:33:44 GMT
It's looking better and better! We've had a couple more playtimes, and nothing at all has happened afterwards. Suti is obviously a bit tense, and there's some minor quibbling from random things for a bit after they return home (like today about water bottle rights, because obviously everyone has to use the same water bottle...), but Suti hasn't showed any interest in picking fights any more. It's amazing how quickly things have turned calm now. Just had to get that one thing sorted out, and everything's fine and dandy. I've also noticed that now Posso and Limppu are engaged in a lot more mounting and pushing behavior. It's looking quite a bit like Posso has just decided to be the second degu, and is now making sure that Limppu doesn't try to steal her lofty middle position It's pretty inresting how clear these dynamics can be when you observe them closely. It feels like Degus are so full of personality that they often show really clearly what they're thinking or feeling.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 9, 2021 22:56:01 GMT
The more intently you observe them, the better you know them, and the better you know them, the more you understand what they are saying and doing. They are wonderful little characters!
I love hearing how things are going with your girls! Is Pulla still mostly ignoring them?
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Post by teemu on Oct 10, 2021 12:01:21 GMT
I haven't actually done any introductions for a while, since Suti was so very high-strung about the pecking order already, and any contact with Pulla seemed to make it even worse. I think it'll be safe to proceed in a bit, though, since the girls to be starting to stabilize and calm down about it.
As for Pulla, I think he's been starting to actually pine for more company, which is sad, but also... good, possibly? He's been really starved for attention lately, literally every waking moment he's yearning to be held (and luckily I can hold him a lot), and he's paying more attention to the girls again. He's also been pulling fur from his belly, which he's done when he's anxious about something. Hopefully they'll be more intrested in getting along when all this is done! Posso has also been pretty intrested in Pulla again, she's been gnawing at the cage bars right where he sits. So maybe now that Suti has finally reigned supreme and things seem to be normalizing, they might get things sorted with Pulla as well.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 10, 2021 17:05:49 GMT
Good to hear things are settling with Suti and that you are feeling confident in your interpretations of what is going on with them all, that's a nice place to be.
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Post by teemu on Oct 10, 2021 17:25:27 GMT
Well, I just figured I'd bite the bullet and let the girls out into the kitchen with Pulla again, and it went really rather well! Suti spent surprisingly much time just socializing with the man, and it actually looked productive! Lots of grooming, sitting next to each other, smelling and friendly grabbing. I think this really does prove that their own hierarchy is solidifying, so she's starting to kind of settle and be more at ease. They were all obviously kind of tense about it, but it did look a lot more like they were actually taking the idea that this might be a new pack member actually seriously. Trying to work out who this new one is and how to treat him and all that.
Afterwards, Suti was obviously more high-strung than earlier, but this didn't lead into the usual aggression or fighting. She did run after Posso a bit and whine at her, but it was really minor and they didn't actually fight at all. Earlier, after they'd had any time with Pulla, she would beat up on Posso relentlessly. Now she just kind of lets them know that she's annoyed, and Posso seems more ready to accommodate her and signal that she's not trying to pick any fights. I'm really proud of her and how well the situation seems to be turning.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 10, 2021 17:31:33 GMT
That's great news! I guess it may be partly due to the increase in space, and not feeling like another goo would make things too cramped
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 12, 2021 7:02:54 GMT
That sounds great!! At this point I'd say, don't move too quickly. Press them too far and there is the risk it will just fall apart again. Not enough pressure and they may not bond. So . . . go carefully.
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Post by teemu on Oct 12, 2021 14:28:58 GMT
Yeah, I'll be carefully doing these introductions and gauging their reactions closely. It's very much possible that after the novelty of meeting for the first time after a break has worn off, they'll revert to their earlier attitudes, but fingers crossed!
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 13, 2021 6:00:22 GMT
I don't expect to see that . . . there can be sliding in the reverse direction, but seldom do they revert right back to the beginning. AND often they make up for lost time and do better, sooner, and more issues are settled. Depending on your degus, you may find that your introductions will have multiple phases like this, or there may be only a few of them, but if you will track them you will find that there is continual, discernable progress forward and toward your goal, despite the setbacks.
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Post by teemu on Nov 5, 2021 13:03:09 GMT
After some observation, it seems like much of this aggression and general posturing might be related to her being in heat. Suti seems to have really savage heats, and she's been going wilder with each one, it feels like. I guess it makes sense since she's in that age where her hormones are most imbalanced and everything going wild, but her latest one just a couple of days ago literally drove her up the walls (as in, she spent much of her time climbing around the cage like crazy) and made her destroy literally all wooden objects she could find. I'm not sure how she managed, but in the span of an hour or so, she made a fist-sized hole in their wooden box house.
The aggression towards Posso picked up again as well, and there were multiple days during which Suti hawkishly watched the upper levels and prevented Posso from ever getting higher than the ground floor. If she strayed up at all, she'd get beaten up instantly and forced back down. Good thing that I put in more water bottles and feeding stations.
(Limppu is, as always, totally immune to all these squabbles. Suti would take a look at her and then forget she even exists again, and she never prevents Limppu from eating from any bowl she wants or going anywhere she wants. It's really kind of amazing. She must somehow be signalling her total and utter submittance, even as she mostly seems to literally not even acknowledge the social ladder and does whatever, including pushing away the dominant female to get more treats.)
Luckily, it seems that I've discovered a pretty good way to manage this. Taking Suti out into the play area alone for an hour or more seems to allow her to work out most of the excess energy and she's much more mellow afterwards when she gets home. This works out pretty well anyway, since neither Limppu or Posso are nearly as intrested in going out to play. Suti, meanwhile, is always watching for an opportunity to get out.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 6, 2021 6:43:30 GMT
I know it is hard on everyone else when Suti is like that, but thinking of Suti, she must be almost bursting out of her skin to be so terribly driven and active during that time. It's really too bad she will not accommodate Pulli, because I think he could be very helpful to her. In another instance of a female that was almost turning herself inside out with each and every heat, being introduced to a neutered male made a tremendous difference to her, and her quality of life improved in every way. She was a different personality though.
As for dominance . . . I begin to wonder if Suti isn't totally the dominant degu. If Limppu can go where she wants, eat what she wants, push Suti away from treats to get more for herself, I'm thinking Limppu is still dominant, she just doesn't have to throw her weight around to prove it. Suti however, seems insecure as the second, and still seems to think she has to prove her place again and again. I hope she will soon grow out of that.
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Post by teemu on Nov 6, 2021 11:44:43 GMT
Hmh, it might be possible that Limppu is the dominant one, now that you mention it. Maybe it's because she was the oldest one and kind of like a "big sister" to the others when they were really small? So possibly in Suti's mind, it's simply a given that Limppu is the big one and that doesn't need to be tested? That would make some sense.
Then again, Posso sometimes tries to dominate Limppu, so I don't really know what's going on with them. Maybe that's the whole issue: they're all still kind of teenagers and possibly don't know it themselves. It almost feels like Limppu doesn't even really know what her own position in the hierarchy is, or doesn't really fcare about it in any real way, which likely also causes some issues for Suti, who is very high-strung about the whole thing.
In any case, I agree that it really would be helpful if Pulla and the girls could accept each other. Sadly, there really hasn't been any development on that front. I've tried the bedroom a couple of times too, but it looks like this is one of those situations where some time needs to pass again.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 8, 2021 17:20:16 GMT
I sometimes wonder if dominance is a bit more spread across different responsibilities with some groups, so one degu may have priority over food another priority over safety decisions, another over sleeping etc. There will still be an overall dominant degu but the picture can be very confusing to the human, even when they know their group really well.
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Post by savvy on Nov 8, 2021 18:27:34 GMT
Interesting thought, there could even be some sort of delegation within the group.
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Post by teemu on Nov 11, 2021 22:35:17 GMT
Well, there ain't a dull day in a house with degus. Now the girls have realized that their new cage is so much closer to the floor that they can actually jump out of the cage just fine. Suti, in particular, is of course absolutely MANIC about this, and now I literally can't open the cage without her just LAUNCHING out, using some part of me as a landing pad and touching down in full run. Luckily it's not dangerous, but it sure does add some extra hurdles to the daily routine. They really are way too smart for their own good (or anyone else's, really!), and Suti has already mapped out where things are and unerringly homes in on kitchen as soon as she's free. It's consuming all her free time and interests now. She just stares out, demanding to taste more freedom.
Posso hasn't been intrested in this new freedom almost at all, but Limppu is a bit more keen on it - though naturally she is much more well-behaved about the whole thing. She just sits by the open door and observes Suti running around like crazy, and then she might ever so carefully, almost daintily, climb down. I've let her explore around a bit as well (especially since she is much easier to retrieve back into the cage), but I'm mostly limiting their freedom. There's nothing outright dangerous in the house and no way to get out of the house, but there are many nooks and crannies with cables in them, and I've also learned from experience that degus may just randomly become very freaked out in the middle of exploration and that usually means holing up under some piece of furniture and screaming, but also refusing to be helped back into the cage...
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Post by teemu on Nov 16, 2021 14:17:59 GMT
Suti's honestly been a bit much to manage lately. She just seems to be getting more and more energy. She's literally always hyper, always demanding as much attention as anyone can give her and being unsatisfied with everything. She wants to be out of the cage all the time, and nothing in the cage is intresting to her. She's frustrated too, so she channels much of her energy into destroying things and antagonizing her sisters. Much of her day is spent literally running in circles, checking the cage door every couple of minutes just in case it's been opened while she was gone, and then going around picking fights or otherwise causing as much mischief and trouble as possible.
It's a bit of a hard situation. Posso has been really scared to move around lately and mostly huddles on the bottom floor. The only time she and Limppu really come out is when I take Suti out to the kitchen, probably because they just don't have the energy to deal with her crap most of the time. And when she finally gets tired, she goes into the huddle and spends most of her time complaining, kicking others out and otherwise causing misery.
I'm having a hard time coming up with a solution. This doesn't seem to be entirely normal, as far as degu behavior is concerned, but I don't really know what I could do to ease everyone's frustration. She needs more toys, but at the same time getting toys causes fights because she gets super aggressive about anyone coming nearby when she has something. She is, honestly, very tyrannical at the moment...
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 16, 2021 17:06:25 GMT
It does sound difficult to deal with, for you and the other goos.
I built a permanent playpen around my cage and the cage door was always open to the pen except for nightime and if I went out. Obviously this isn't an option for everyone, but it solves them escaping every time you need to open the cage to feed them and also adds lots of extra space.
My only other idea would be some kind of calming herbs or possible hormone balancing herbs. I know some rabbit people pay attention to medicinal properties of herbs, so perhaps it's possible that they can have some effect on degus.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 16, 2021 17:08:51 GMT
I suppose a much more drastic idea could be try to pair her up with a different male that she gets along with. With her history I think this would have to involve some sort of testing to see if she might get along and settle more with a male of her choosing and I really don't know how you would achieve this, especially as I think degus are harder to come by where you are?
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Post by teemu on Nov 16, 2021 19:28:11 GMT
Yeah, I really don't know what to do about this. There sadly isn't enough space in the house to start expanding the cage into a permanent pen, and degus are rare around here. And, just judging by how Suti behaves, I really don't think it's likely that she'd accept any degu regardless. She's absolutely savage at the moment...
I tried to take all the girls out to play today, because I figured that it'd be nice for the rest of them to get some outing time as well. It went pretty much like normal, but afterwards Suti once again mercilessly harassed Posso and essentially beat her up and bullied her to the point where she just broke, huddled down and pitifully cried. Even after Suti stopped doing it, Posso just kept crying small, scared cries.
I really don't think this is normal. Suti is so amped up she's quickly becoming unmanageable. She's not in heat right now, or if she is she hasn't been durin many other situations like this, and her behavior is absolutely tyrannical. She throws her weight around, destroys everything and absolutely HATES anyone who even looks at her funny. This whole situation has gotten to a point where the rest of the girls can't do much anything, can't be taken out of the cage, can't be interacted with, because they're either avoiding Suti's tyranny or because Suti will actually start hassling them or even assaulting them. I can't take Posso out of the cage with Suti, I can't take her out without Suti.
I'm honestly most worried about Posso. She's started to behave like a beaten child, all quiet and reclusive and hesitant to do anything. When I offer a chance to get out of the cage, she hesitates and backs off because she knows she will be beaten if she does. There can be whole days when I can't even interact with her because she's laying low and scared of Suti. Limppu's doing a lot better since she essentially does not seem to mind or resist any displays of dominance, and just looks confused if someone mounts her or grooms her, but Posso is taking this really badly. She honestly seems to be traumatized, at this point...
I've got to do something about this. Suti seems to be testing my limits, honestly. She demands more and more, and after she gets it, she quickly decides it's not enough. I don't mean to sound like I'm thinking she's malicious, but I mean that I feel she has a rather huge ego and rather huge demands, and if they are met, it means she can escalate it. The much larger cage helped for a bit, but now she's frustrated again and wants to have the rest of the house as well. The private playtime helped her work out her energy for a short while, but now she's essentially unhappy whenever she can't get out. And she absolutely takes it out on Posso.
Another worrying sign is that she seems to think she can boss me around as well. When she tries to jump out of the cage, if I have a hand in the way, she grabs it and starts pulling it in, boxing with it, teething it (not biting, but essentially putting teeth to it and teething at it very purposefully, in a way that's clearly not grooming). I'm honestly not sure how you're supposed to handle a degu with attitude problems like this. I'm hoping it will get better after she's grown up a bit, but at the same time I'm really worried for Posso. She can't do anything without being punished for it, and I can't even get her out of the cage to be at ease... and if I could, she'd get beaten up again afterwards. This clearly needs to change...
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