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Post by teemu on Sept 7, 2021 19:13:40 GMT
Hey everyone,
Things have mostly been steady with the girls and Pulla lately, but there's a problem behavior that's really started to worry me. Namely, after I take the girls out to the kitchen to play and run around and return them to the cage, Suti is incredibly aggressive towards Posso for at least an hour or two. It's started to worry me a lot since it seems to be getting worse, and a couple of times it's looked like there might be an actual FBOD situation coming up or risk of other actual harm.
It starts pretty much immediately after the girls return home. Suti just seems to totally lose it and starts screaming and going around the cage all manic and starts behaving like she just wants Posso out and gone. She seems almost panicked in some way. Runs around like crazy and harries Posso from all sides, tries to bite her rump, jumps at her, does really aggressive boxing, and just outright SCREAMS out. It's almost like she doesn't recognize her own sister somehow. Posso doesn't even show any signs of aggression before this happens, but she's very defensive and pushes back HARD when Suti starts doing it. I was hoping they'd get used to these outings and stop doing this, but it looks like it's just getting more serious and Suti just gets more and more worked up each time. At this point Posso is really skeptic about being taken to the kitchen because she obviously knows what's coming afterwards...
I really don't know how to help it. There's no fighting like that in any other situation. If I don't take them out to the kitchen, they don't fight at all and life proceeds normally. But if they go out, they're going to fight afterwards like crazy. I wouldn't even bother with it, but the girls are energetic and it doesn't seem right to keep them in the cage all the time. Especially so since Suti in particular is really energetic and seems frustrated a lot of the time. She's taken to seriously destroying everything in the cage that she can get her teeth on and generally sems like she just doesn't have enough to do.
I noted this behavior earlier already when I was trying to introduce the girls to Pulla (that has been put on hold for now anyway), but I thought it had to do with how Suti disliked him. Pulla's not involved at all now, and I do clean the kitchen from smells every time they go out. My only theory right now is that Suti and Posso still have some lingering issues about the hierarchy, likely Posso not submitting to Suti totally yet, and a different environment really triggers Suti in this regard. Today, the fighting ended with Posso huddled in a corner crying out really miserably, as if she was asking for mercy or help. I feel really bad for her, but at least it seemed to placate Suti and make her stop freaking out...
Any thoughts? Suti seems like a real tyrant sometimes...
(Suti never goes after Limppu like this after outings. Likely because Limppu is totally submissive, stays out of the way and just lays low and submits when Suti is like this. Posso behaves in a more "Go away, I don't want to do this!" kind of way...)
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Post by savvy on Sept 7, 2021 21:11:48 GMT
Thats a hard one. There are two possibilities that spring to mind.
1. She hates going back in the cage. This could be because she needs more time out, or it could be because she finds the cage too restrictive after free time.
2. She is not the dominant degu during free time, and feels like she has to reassert her authority when they are back in the cage to retain her position.
Unfortunately, I don't know the solution to either of these scenarios.
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Post by teemu on Sept 7, 2021 21:44:36 GMT
Thats a hard one. There are two possibilities that spring to mind. 1. She hates going back in the cage. This could be because she needs more time out, or it could be because she finds the cage too restrictive after free time. 2. She is not the dominant degu during free time, and feels like she has to reassert her authority when they are back in the cage to retain her position. Unfortunately, I don't know the solution to either of these scenarios.
I think it might be the latter. I've noticed that Posso sometimes mounts Suti or hassles her during the outings. Not aggressively or anything, but it almost looks like Posso thinks she might get away with it there. And for some reason Suti doesn't really react to it outside. Maybe they have too much stuff going on during the playtime to really care. But she sure does come for Posso after they get back home...
Hopefully it's something that will get sorted after they've matured and their hierarchy has stabilized. I'm mostly just worried and not sure what to do about the immediate future. The post-playtime fights really have gotten to the point where I'm having to watch them really carefully to be sure they aren't actually going to start mauling each other. Sometimes I have to push Suti away (with my phone or some other object, usually, I really don't want to stick my fingers there) because she's actually trying to bite Posso's rump or tail, and it really does get rather severe. But I'd really rather not just confine them to their cage all the time either.
I suppose I could try to see about if I can degu-proof our bedroom and try to see if a location change would help anyway.
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Post by savvy on Sept 7, 2021 22:15:55 GMT
You could try intervening during free time to help Suri retain dominance over that area, but it could make things worse.
Thoughts?
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Post by hpdegus on Sept 8, 2021 1:24:32 GMT
The girls and Pulla both get free time in the kitchen, right?
I had what sounds like a similar issue just over a year ago with one of my groups (there's a thread on here somewhere). I had all three of my groups living in my room, so playtime was all in the same area, though I would put down towels to try to dampen the scents from previous groups. It started with one degu, Prongs, starting fights after playtime. Then progressed to FBOD during playtime. We got through a few months with Prongs only being allowed to have play time by himself, but it eventually got so bad he was starting fights in the cage too. I ended up separating him from his brother, Mooney, who he kept attacking, but only while I was gone during the day. At night I monitored them, felt like a referee for a boxing match!
Prongs really only stopped once he got more space from the other groups (moved and they were in a separate room with separate play areas). A year later, he doesn't seem to care at all that he's now sharing a play space other groups. I think its also an age thing, since I believe the group setting him off was my hormonal pups (now over 3 years old).
Sorry, long winded way to ask if you can give them extra space or individual playtime until the teenager phase passes? I think someone recommended a pet friendly plug-in scent diffuser, but I never got a chance to try it.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 8, 2021 5:52:44 GMT
I also thought of both things that Savvy suggests, and I have to say, I think it is both those. Which in my mind would mean you need to enlarge the cage the girls are in so that things are improving or getting the four of them all together will not work. OR you could just proceed with introducing Posso and And Pulla together and make them a pair.
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Post by teemu on Sept 8, 2021 12:30:41 GMT
The girls and Pulla both get free time in the kitchen, right? I had what sounds like a similar issue just over a year ago with one of my groups (there's a thread on here somewhere). I had all three of my groups living in my room, so playtime was all in the same area, though I would put down towels to try to dampen the scents from previous groups. It started with one degu, Prongs, starting fights after playtime. Then progressed to FBOD during playtime. We got through a few months with Prongs only being allowed to have play time by himself, but it eventually got so bad he was starting fights in the cage too. I ended up separating him from his brother, Mooney, who he kept attacking, but only while I was gone during the day. At night I monitored them, felt like a referee for a boxing match! Prongs really only stopped once he got more space from the other groups (moved and they were in a separate room with separate play areas). A year later, he doesn't seem to care at all that he's now sharing a play space other groups. I think its also an age thing, since I believe the group setting him off was my hormonal pups (now over 3 years old). Sorry, long winded way to ask if you can give them extra space or individual playtime until the teenager phase passes? I think someone recommended a pet friendly plug-in scent diffuser, but I never got a chance to try it.
Yeah, they both get free time in the same space. I do clean the floor and other reachable surfaces after each playtime, but it's possible that they're still getting smells from each other and that sets them off. I've been looking at making our bedroom a degu-proof zone for another space though, and I think it can work out. Individual playtime for Suti might be good too, since she's so high energy.
All this has also made me realize that the cage the girls have at the moment is really on the small side (I don't have the exact dimensions right now, but it's a bird cage that's not small by any means, but also really not on the larger side when cages of this size category are concerned). It seemed to work fine for just Pulla and Munkki back then, but it's three girls now, and at least one of them is really high energy. So I dug into my savings and ordered a cage that's a lot bigger in all dimensions. Maybe it won't solve the problem, but it surely can't hurt! It'll also allow me to move Pulla into the old cage, which is good since the cage he's in right now has wide bar spacing which allows him to gnaw on the bars a whole lot, and I'm worried it will cause dental issues.
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Post by teemu on Sept 8, 2021 12:33:36 GMT
I also thought of both things that Savvy suggests, and I have to say, I think it is both those. Which in my mind would mean you need to enlarge the cage the girls are in so that things are improving or getting the four of them all together will not work. OR you could just proceed with introducing Posso and And Pulla together and make them a pair.
At the moment I'm not trying to get them together in any active way. Pulla and Posso haven't been too pleased with each other either for some time now, and it seems like Pulla has also kind of decided that these snooty kids aren't worth the hassle. It might be that all my coddling and personal attention has really bonded him to me, so he feels like he doesn't need other packmates if they're going to make things so difficult. So for now, I'm just maintaining things, and I'm hoping that after this stormy puberty is over things might be stable enough to try again.
Still, Pulla seems to be a lot more energetic with other degus in the house and they don't mind each other in neighboring cages, so it still feels like it's been a net positive for him as well
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Post by bouncy on Sept 8, 2021 14:37:08 GMT
I agreed with Savvy too.
I think it's either to do with different hierarchy outside or, believe it or not, their reaction to the perceived reduction in living space when you shut them in again.
You could try keeping them in for a week, or make a distinction between their space (the cage) and their running place. You can do this by stopping their ability to run in and out via a ramp etc, and perhaps even using a different area where they have to be transported from the cage.
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Post by teemu on Sept 8, 2021 15:32:52 GMT
I agreed with Savvy too. I think it's either to do with different hierarchy outside or, believe it or not, their reaction to the perceived reduction in living space when you shut them in again. You could try keeping them in for a week, or make a distinction between their space (the cage) and their running place. You can do this by stopping their ability to run in and out via a ramp etc, and perhaps even using a different area where they have to be transported from the cage.
I already have to transport them between the cage and kitchen. It could be that Suti is frustrated, she's certainly very hyperactive, but I think it might ultimately be a bit of both. She did start freaking out over just Posso going out alone when I was trying to introduce just Posso to Pulla, likely because she smelled of him when she came home. So it could be that she's frustrated about having to go home after the outings, and also this is made worse by perceiving Posso as trying to resist her dominance.
I think the bigger cage will be a good step in the right direction. Hopefully it arrives soon. In the meanwhile, I'll be trying to provide Suti with as much to do as possible. She's discovered some natural instinct about nest building and craves sticks all the time so she can build nests like in the wild. She keeps making nests all around the cage relentlessly.
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Post by bouncy on Sept 8, 2021 17:10:39 GMT
You may find the new cage will lead to a hierarchy squabble, but it will ultimately resolve issues over territory.
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Post by teemu on Sept 8, 2021 21:35:41 GMT
Yeah, I'm hoping that I can lessen any squabbles a bit since I can use most of the old levels and furnishings from their current cage in the new one. But it's likely that something will come up since they seem to be so high-strung about it anyhow. But like you say, it will at least resolve the issues.
Although on that note, it seems like the girls might have reached some sort of an agreement after the really bad squabble yesterday. Posso has been really reconcilatory today and has been hugging and carefully grooming Suti all day. Maybe she finally realized that things will be easier if she doesn't try to put up a fight. She did kind basically go into a fetal position and cry for mercy yesterday, which I haven't seen before, so I'm hoping that's a... good sign?
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Post by teemu on Sept 15, 2021 14:08:30 GMT
The girls have a new cage now! I just finished putting in the essential furnishings and basic levels so they can get acquainted with it, but there'll be much more renovating to come. The cage is just great! It's 120cm x 65cm x 100 and the girls are going around all enthralled by the new space. No one seems scared or anxious, and I think it really helped that I took their furnishings and all right from their old cage. They'll be getting familiar with it for a bit, I bet, but everyone's found their food, water and wheel, so the essentials are in order Remains to be seen if this will improve Suti's attitude, but I think it was a good thing to do anyhow.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 15, 2021 17:39:48 GMT
OOOOO!! So exciting!!! Will you be sharing any photos?
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Post by teemu on Sept 25, 2021 17:21:26 GMT
Well, I'm not sure whether the larger cage is helping or not. It does seem like Suti goes off on Posso less now, but it hasn't stopped completely. We had two very good tryouts, where after playtime Suti would just whine a bit and then lose interest, but today they had a big, loud fight again afterwards. Although for now it seems that the fight was a lot shorter than the ones before, so maybe things are still better? I think just the sheer size of the cage means that Posso can get away from Suti better and chill out somewhere else until Suti calms down. I managed to get a video of the nastiest part of the fight. The lighting is kind of poor, but you can see (and hear) how Suti is pretty well. In case anyone's worried, I did check Posso (and Suti) afterwards, but there's no bites or other injuries. Even though it really looks like Suti actually bites her. I think Posso is alert enough to turn and push her away when she tries to do that, but it's still pretty worrying. www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmOBlQAO_qcAs you can see, Posso really doesn't want to fight and just prefers to go away, but she will stand her ground if Suti pushes her enough. Limppu just sits very still when all this is going on (you can actually see Suti going to check on her at one point, as if she's making sure that Limppu isn't up to anything). It looks pretty rough, but it pretty much ended after this video, and lasted a total of less than 5 minutes, so that's a lot better than in the past when it might go on for an hour. There's been some whining afterwards, and Suti still seems to be giving Posso some mean looks as if she's considering starting something, but things have calmed down for the most part. It's strange how this seems to set her off so much. I've changed the cage and their play area, and this never happens other than after going outside to play(although sometimes Suti complains a whole lot about something)...
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 25, 2021 17:57:32 GMT
I wonder if it will improve yet again once you get two complete levels in there, which will allow for more hiding/resting places? How do you feed them, Teemu? Do you have one set of bowls for their food, or do you have more than one set? Or maybe you spread the food out over the surfaces for them to forage?
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Post by teemu on Sept 25, 2021 18:23:19 GMT
Yeah, I'm hoping that when the cage is more complete, they'll be put more at ease. They have two food bowls at different ends of the cage, along with two water bottles. I also sprinkle dried leaves and other forage around the cage, which they like a lot.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 27, 2021 4:57:33 GMT
Well, you are certainly doing everything to make it a good environment for them!! I hope that these will all help to unwind that really tight spring inside of her, so that she can just enjoy life and her cage mates, rather than being so stressed about every little thing all the time.
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Post by teemu on Sept 27, 2021 10:13:00 GMT
Yeah, taken as a whole, I do think they seem to be settling down. Posso and Suti have been acting in ways that make me think that Posso is accepting herself as the second-ranked member of the pack. Their interactions when everyone is calm actually look rather sweet, and they spent a lot of time huddling together yesterday and grooming each other. Almost as if to make up for the earlier fight. There's never been any signs that their pack dynamics are breaking down, it's just those freakouts after their playtime and then everyone is totally normal and likes each other again.
What's funny is that Limppu seems to be totally excluded from this drama. She's actually in heat right now, and sometimes when she's in heat she becomes really... whiny and bratty to everyone around her. Like, yesterday she hogged a food bowl, screamed at anyone attempting to even approach and literally THREW them out, and just generally had hissy fits over everything. You'd think that Suti would absolutely hate this, considering how high-wired she is about not being challenged in any way, but no! She just looks confused at this and goes to do something else. I guess it must be that Limppu just doesn't represent any kind of a credible threat any more, since she's usually totally submissive, and also the way she behaves during these times must be different from hierarchy squabbles in some key ways; she's just throwing a tantrum instead of putting on airs.
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Post by teemu on Oct 4, 2021 18:25:48 GMT
Success! Things had been kinda the same for the past week, but today everything went really well! It looks like Posso might finally be realizing that it's just easier if she submits to Suti. After they returned home from their playtime, Suti went after her with the same determination as always, but instead of protesting, Posso just keeled over, allowed Suti to push her around as she wished and just made submissive noises. Suti spent some time making sure that she understood her place, peed on her and lost all interest!
This is a huge relief if things keep like this. It's so very stressful to keep watching the girls after every time they go outside.
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