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Post by hpdegus on Jul 10, 2021 18:18:54 GMT
May have spoken too soon, he's back at 167g.
I'll see if I can figure out the diastix tonight. Maybe I should call the vet on Monday if I don't see any improvement?
I'm kind of starting to fear that there is something drastically more wrong than just allergies. Like DC said, maybe the diabetes? Or if its molar roots or a tumor. I don't know, and I don't know if he should be on a pain management strategy or not. We'll see what happens in the next day or so I guess.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 10, 2021 18:58:04 GMT
Have you double checked your scales are totally accurate, or at least consistent in the readouts? I'm just thinking it doesn't seem possible that he would put on 10g in one night; in a few hours it's only going to vary by the weight of food and water he took on minus what he pood and peed.
Be prepared to do a few diastix at different times of day before you read too much into it.
I suppose a week of metacam might tell you something. After that you are getting into cost/hassle/stress/risk to benefit issues of doing body and head xrays or dental treatment. But I think it's probably best to focus on one thing at a time, so let us know how the diastix go.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 10, 2021 19:42:51 GMT
Thats a good point Molette. Scales do seem to be consistent, I think the seeming gain was since he had just eaten CC without peeing/pooping.
Ah, ok, that does make sense. I'll see if I can try one tonight then maybe two or so tomorrow at different times.
Yes, agreed. I think its just freaking me out that I have no idea why he has big drops in weight. I'll wait to try metacam. Also, I very much worry about the risks of sedation, especially with his weight so low.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 10, 2021 23:41:57 GMT
Got the first ketostix reading! Color seems to be in between negative and 5 mg/dL (trace).
Anyone know what to expect for a degu? I believe that 0.6-3 is normal for people, and moderate levels are definitely not good for people with diabetes. But no clue for degus.
Thoughts?
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 11, 2021 9:37:30 GMT
As far as I know the scale still works as an indicator of severity for any mammal as it's going on percentages in the pee, so a normal result is great.
Did you get diastix for glucose only, or did you get ketostix (or a combined one) for ketones too?
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 11, 2021 12:55:05 GMT
Ok awesome, that makes sense. I'll try doing a few more today, see what pops up.
Just the ketostix. Should I go out and try to find diastix or the combined one?
Edit: just checked and he's around trace again. It again looks like a bit of a color mix between negative and trace.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 11, 2021 17:22:16 GMT
If he's not producing any ketones this is really good news for his weight. Going into ketosis and producing ketones means you are burning fat and usually losing weight, so it's great if Ollie isn't getting into this territory, I was starting to wonder if he might be. Diabetics can have such difficulty processing food, including fats and other forms of food, not just sugars and carbs, that they can end up in ketosis even if they are eating reasonably well, if they are eating things that don't suit and the diabetes is severe enough. If this were to happen, you can use the ketostix to test him after different food items to figure out what is causing him a problem. Anyway, hopefully it looks like you aren't going to have to get into that.
Since you are possibly getting a slight reading above trace, I would probably go ahead and buy some diastix because they will usually be a better indicator for less severe diabetes. Just get the plain diastix that just test for glucose since you already have ketostix.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 11, 2021 18:25:27 GMT
Thanks for explaining that Molette, it makes more sense now. I had done a bit of reading, but a lot of it was the "we're doing the keto diet and you want to see ketones to show you're going to lose weight" so all I was getting from that was presence of ketones=bad news for diabetics.
I'll look for the diastix when I go grocery shopping tomorrow then. Hopefully the pharmacy will have some.
Ollie has now decided that he is not interested in the CC/rice puffs mixture, thank you very much. I'll check his weight tonight, hopefully it will be back in the 170g range. I really dont want to try force feeding, I think it could possibly do more harm than good at the moment. But I just don't know what to feed him thats calorie dense, since he's diabetic and doesn't seem to care for anything I've tried so far.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 12, 2021 16:49:12 GMT
If the tests you've had so far a more normal, barely trace . . . wouldn't the sticks show a higher indication if he is diabetic? I am making a bit of an assumption here, I know. I really don't have a firm hold on the "how" of this. I wonder what you would see with a diastix test strip if you were to feed him some oats. Which may not be the thing to do. So don't go on my thoughts.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 12, 2021 17:51:16 GMT
So, if I understand this correctly, you'll only see higher levels of ketones in a diabetic patient if their diabetes is severe and not controlled? So his low/trace levels suggests (to me) that uncontrolled diabetes is probably not the underlying cause here. The pharmacy is ordering in some diastix for me, which apparently are better for monitoring less severe diabetes.
To be honest, I wasn't sure what would be contributing to an increased severity in diabetes. I'm generally really careful with food and treats, but I absolutely could have missed something.
I'm actually trying oats today. I'll keep a watch on his ketone levels, but he dropped weight to 162g last night. He won't eat sunflower seeds or CC anymore so oats seemed like the next logical choice.
I'm actually wondering if the CC/rice puffs mixture wasn't hurting more than it helped. He seemed to sneeze quite a bit, maybe he was allergic to something in there? And the rice puffs are kind of just empty calories.
But who knows. I kind of want to take him to the vet, but everything they would need to do requires sedation. And his weight is just so low.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 12, 2021 19:47:06 GMT
Yes, as far as I understand it, ketones are a sign of severe and/or less well controlled diabetes.
I think his diabetes may still may be a factor, it may be affecting how he processes food and stores and uses energy.
Please know that I don't think this is related in any way to how you have looked after him. He had diabetes when you got him, it's likely a genetic thing for him and may or may not naturally get worse with age, nothing to do with his diet. At this stage and in these circumstances you are quite rightly trying to get him to eat more of anything he will eat.
Equally it may turn out that the diabetes was a temporary result of past poor diet when he came to you and hasn't actually been a problem at all since you have been feeding him good food since you got him! The diastix will tell you, fingers crossed it's good news.
I think you may need to think about referring this back to the vet for advice, it's such a tough call. How is he in himself?
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 12, 2021 22:07:21 GMT
Absolutely wouldn't be surprised if the diabetes was contributing in some way to all of this. Maybe allergies set it off, cant gain weight with the diabetes? Unclear.
Thanks Molette, I really appreciate that. Whatever happened, his diabetes was severe enough to result in mature cataracts before I even got him. Honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was a bit of both causes, but his first 6 months with a horrible person did him no favors at all.
Yep, I'm really interested to see what the diastix results look like.
Yes, its difficult. I may call tomorrow and see what the vet thinks. If he doesn't think he can do anything without sedation it will very much be a tough decision.
He's just about the same as he's been for almost a month now. Eyes are really good, nose is decent. Hes still sooo sassy, which is awesome. I've seen him drink, and at least near the food bowls so thats good. He's just so picky. He is now refusing sunflower seeds and we'll see how long the oats last. Hes grinding his teeth, but not as much as a few days ago. He is periodically opening his mouth wider after eating, so not sure if thats a good sign for teeth issues.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 13, 2021 13:02:15 GMT
Ok, weird question, but can seasonal allergies set off something like rheumatoid arthritis?
I started thinking about this because I was reading about a goo (seemingly in great health) who stopped eating due to pain from arthritis.
I am not an immunologist (biochemist here!) but it would make sense to me that allergies triggering the immune system would cause inflammation and a possible over reaction to self, thus rheumatoid arthritis.
Was just reading, there do seem to be studies out there showing that allergic arthritis is a thing, and that allergic reactions can exacerbate arthritis.
Think this is very interesting, but also wondering if it could account for some of what I'm seeing with Ollie. How would they determine if he does have arthritis? I think in dogs its a general exam and x-ray.
I may be grasping for straws here, so please tell me if anyone thinks I've gone off the deep end with this one!
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Post by winic1 on Jul 13, 2021 14:31:26 GMT
If he won't eat his favorite seeds anymore, what about grinding them up, then adding just enough water (or a little CC & water) to make them into a paste, so you can form little pea-sized balls with it? If his mouth is bothering him, not having to actually crunch and chew them might help? Nuts are also a good high-calorie, low-carb food. Ground nut balls might also get him to eat.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 13, 2021 15:07:37 GMT
I have tried that before (bought a small grinder just for that purpose) and he turned his nose up. But I can definitely try again! I like the idea of making the balls a bit smaller, that might help.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 13, 2021 19:38:00 GMT
Ok, weird question, but can seasonal allergies set off something like rheumatoid arthritis? I started thinking about this because I was reading about a goo (seemingly in great health) who stopped eating due to pain from arthritis. I am not an immunologist (biochemist here!) but it would make sense to me that allergies triggering the immune system would cause inflammation and a possible over reaction to self, thus rheumatoid arthritis. Was just reading, there do seem to be studies out there showing that allergic arthritis is a thing, and that allergic reactions can exacerbate arthritis. Think this is very interesting, but also wondering if it could account for some of what I'm seeing with Ollie. How would they determine if he does have arthritis? I think in dogs its a general exam and x-ray. I may be grasping for straws here, so please tell me if anyone thinks I've gone off the deep end with this one! I've been on a health journey that very much involves gut health, inflammation, and the many issues that come from it. The more inflammation is studied, the more it is identified as a major cause for many health issues. Problems in the gut are also being identified as the main cause of inflammation. I wonder if your vet could supply you with some probiotics and enzymes that you could get into Ollie, that aren't included/found in CC? (Since he is now refusing CC.) I don't know if rodent digestion is similar to human, but there are vitamins that are crucial to the function of our metabolism and the production of energy, which are then part of cell repair/replacement, hormone and enzyme production, etc.. If there were drops or something like that that would deliver probiotics and vitamins to his gut, that could help him.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 13, 2021 20:19:32 GMT
Thanks DC, thats a really good point. I've been dealing with IBS so am also very familiar with how inflammation and the gut are critically tied to overall health.
I've just called the vet, spoke to a vet tech. She wanted me to bring him in for diagnostics, but I told her at this weight I'm really not comfortable with how risky sedation is. She's going to speak to the vet, see if he has any probiotic/vitamin suggestions. He may also say that Ollie should really come in. We'll see.
Good thing is that Ollie is eating. He pooped on me, it was small, but at least he's eating and drinking.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 13, 2021 20:30:35 GMT
And talked with the vet again, nothing other than critical care they can suggest.
But they do think it would be worth it to try metacam. I'm going to get it refilled and pick up new stuff now.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 14, 2021 9:03:22 GMT
I think trying some metacam is a good idea.
I don't think officially there is a link between allergies and autoimmune disease, but I agree with you guys that in practice there probably is, it's all related to the immune system attacking the wrong thing, just aimed at different types of tissues, so why wouldn't it be linked. Modern medicine knows virtually nothing about allergies or autoimmune diseases.
There are other probiotics and prebiotics, but I don't know what you can find in the US. Supreme make Recovery Plus which is their version of CC. There is also Fibreplex which comes as a paste in a big syringe or as nuggets, I think. Vetark make Pro-C which is a powder probiotic. You might find other US products if you search a rabbit or guinea pig community since they tackle gut stasis all the time.
I know I've mentioned this before but the other great thing for gut health is fresh forage.
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Post by hpdegus on Jul 14, 2021 11:02:34 GMT
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