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Post by savvy on Oct 8, 2021 19:12:06 GMT
Dixie's steroids were in tablet form too (prednislone) and I used to crush the required dose, put the powder on a teaspoon and add a small amount of water before sucking the mixture into a syringe. It was agreed to start on a high dose, then reduce it once his symptoms had settled so we had some wriggle room when he had a flare up and needed more.
He got quite used to taking them and used to wait at the bars for me to dose him, so it became a normal routine.
There are issues with steroids when taking them, regardless of the species, but it can give them a good quality of life for longer. He was on them for just over 11 months, and I would have lost him a year sooner without them.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 8, 2021 22:37:24 GMT
I'll start by saying thank you again. After reading your replies I was able to calm down and think through this more.
@dc Thank you for your prayers and virtual hug! I'm also really hope this was a misdiagnosis and it's something more benign.
@savvy Thanks for the additional info on Dixie's steroids! I think it will really help my case to be able to give more details on Monday. I'm glad to hear they were so effective at extending his life. May I ask what the side effects were?
@molette Thank you for telling me to just breathe and wait for a bit, it was exactly what I needed yesterday. I definitely wasn't expecting that, was thinking it would be teeth issues requiring sedation. I'm still a bit hesitant about his teeth supposedly being fine, I'll probably ask Monday vet to look them over as well. Yes, so his poos have been small for several months now. Before this past week or so (when he really started losing weight), they looked like normal healthy poops, just half size. the past week they've been more shriveled though. I'll take a look again tonight.
I will keep on with CC, like you recommended. We'll see if he is willing to eat it! He's been really happy to eat crocks that have been softened in water (also a great place to hide meds).
I think I won't be able to try a steroid injection on Monday. I want to keep him on the metacam for at least a bit, since there's nothing to him right now (150g, up from 147g yesterday morning). It's a bit soon to tell, but I have my fingers crossed that this does something. He didn't lose as much weight O/N, nor when I was gone today (I suspect he had stopped eating outside of hand feeding at that point).
I'll keep you all updated on how he does over the next few days. Depending on what happens (losing or gaining weight) I'll make a call on the steroids (if vet is on board).
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Post by savvy on Oct 8, 2021 23:18:28 GMT
If memory serves, it wasn't the side effects we (Wendy/Joe the vets, me) were worried about, it was the effects of long term use. This was one of the reasons we dropped the dose as soon as we could and kept it low for as long as possible. Each steroid has different side effects, so you'll need to look up which one he is given.
Dixie ended up on Frusol due to fluid build up, but that was after a few months and while he was on a high dose of the steroid. As soon as we reduced the steroids, he was taken off the Frusol until about a month before he died. It was noted that at the end both the steroids and the frusol had stopped working but as I said, that was almost a year after he was put on the steroids. He was 10.
Hope this helps.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 9, 2021 1:09:28 GMT
Thanks Savvy, that's very helpful. I definitely need to do some reading this weekend about steroids.
Forgot to mention that he's been doing this thing where he stretches out so his back legs are completely extended, maybe pressing his abdomen on the floor. I thought it was just due to bloat before, but who knows.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 9, 2021 2:01:12 GMT
Ok, Ollie is definitely mouth breathing. Seems to happen when hes in a more relaxed state. Suggestions?
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 9, 2021 14:31:53 GMT
I would definitely get the vet to check his mouth again on Monday. Is this the vet that previously did the dental work? They should know exactly where to look to check for the spur and to see if the tongue is fully recovered. My experience on the forum says that one vet saying it's not dental doesn't mean it isn't dental or mouth related.
Alice didn't have any obvious side effects from the steroid. It's possible a steroid would help with the inflammation blocking his nasal passages. It does make sense to wait and get a second opinion on the mouth before you switch to a steroid because metacam is obviously the right thing for dental pain, it also makes sense to have your preferred vet on board with a decision to try steroids, It's always beneficial to have open communication, trust and agreement between you and the vet, if you feel they are a good vet.
I can't think of anything useful to say regarding the extended back legs or the mouth breathing. It did occur to me to wonder if air in the abdomen could feel like swelling in the abdomen and that could be what the vet felt this week?
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 9, 2021 23:11:26 GMT
Yes, definitely will ask her to check his mouth. Thursday vet was the vet who has seen him before, so knew the location of the past spurs.
More I think about it, I really would be surprised if there is a dental/mouth issue going on too. Hes taking so much longer to eat everything.
Ah, thats good to know. Yes, I really want to be sure about this before taking him off pain meds, especially since he seems to be gaining a bit of weight again. Fingers crossed its not just water retention or bloating.
I really do like the vet I saw on Thursday, this is just such a big diagnosis I want a second opinion.
I've been wondering that too. I dont exactly know what he felt. First he lightly palpated the abdomen, Ollie must have reached since he said "Oh, that must be tender." Then continued to feel and said intestinal walls felt thickened/swollen. So I believe he actually was able to feel intestines, not just general abdominal bloat.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 10, 2021 0:51:56 GMT
Not as active during tonight's playtime. Hes mostly spent it sitting on my lap so far.
Edit: thinking about it more now, may have been uncomfortable-ness from bloating. He had a lot of oats soaked in a critical care solution. I gave an extra dose of infacol a bit ago. Good news is that he did eat more today than yesterday and he's always happy to chow down on the forage mixture.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 10, 2021 12:52:54 GMT
Vet appointment is tomorrow. I've been thinking through a few scenarios and would love additional opinions.
1. Vet can't look at Ollie's molars without sedation.
I think here I definitely will ask for her to sedate him and look, assuming he will need a dental. I know he may pass under sedation, but I honestly would rather that than having him potentially starve to death if it is a tooth problem and we ignored it.
2. Vet looks in Ollie's mouth with otoscope, doesn't see anything at all (no sedation).
I don't really know here. I guess it depends on her confidence level? Thoughts?
3. It is teeth, she does a dental, he survives.
I think I'd still ask about oral steroids, depending on whether she still feels like his intestines are swollen. I'd want to keep him on metacam for at least a few days anyway, allow him to heal up from the dental.
4. Not teeth, intestines not swollen.
I think I'd still ask about steroids here. Just since I know his nose is an issue. Thoughts?
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Post by teemu on Oct 10, 2021 14:44:41 GMT
If there's need for sedation so the vet can get things done, I'd say go for it. There's risks involved, but in my mind, it's better to take a risk that might lead to good than it is to avoid it and keep things on their current (undsesirable) course. And, well, it's never a pleasant thing to consider, but if he passes under the sedation, he will not suffer from it. That's how I try to think when scenarios like this come up with my pets; it might end in a sad way, but for the animal in question it will still be a relief, and there will be no pain, so it's better than letting them suffer and not go through it at all.
I wish you all the best for the visit!
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 10, 2021 17:02:18 GMT
There probably isn't much harm in trying to look without sedation first, but bearing in mind that you are at the point where you need to know 100% for sure if there is an issue in his mouth, then I would definitely be prepared for sedation, and I think it is worth the risk in these circumstances. If he does have sedation and is stable under the sedation it might be worth getting an abdominal xray, it might show something useful. There's no harm in asking about steroids.
Best of luck, I'll be thinking about you.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 10, 2021 18:25:12 GMT
Thank you both. I really do think he'll need to be sedated tomorrow. A lot of his actions really do lead me to think his teeth are causing an issue. And like you said Teemu, if he doesn't make it, at least that's pain free.
Went on the vets app just now, they don't have his appt for tomorrow written in. So now I'm worried they canceled it even though I told them not to. So I guess I'll just call as soon as they open to confirm I have the appt, and if not, tell them he really needs to get in that day.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 11, 2021 18:22:09 GMT
I was thinking about Ollie, and remembered my note to self last time that if there is continuing weight loss then the most likely reason is something going on in the mouth, so maybe it's worth getting the vet to take a look in his mouth again. You were right! First things first, Ollie made it through sedation and a dental! Just made it home, he's wandering around a bit disoriented, but moving ok. In more detail, we saw a different vet today. I really like her, she's more of a people person, which is nice. She said his abdomen does feel doughy, but hoping that's secondary to all the teeth issues, especially since I've been feeding different things recently. She found a spur on his back molar, said it would have been nearly impossible to see without sedation. She not only ground that down, but went through his whole mouth making sure any potential spur were taken care of. She also trimmed his front teeth (needed, they were wonky), though they look a little short to me. The spur was causing an ulcer (hidden by food) so he'll go back on antibiotics. Ive also got eye/nose drops to see if those help his nose (oflaxin).
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Post by teemu on Oct 11, 2021 18:53:14 GMT
That sounds really good! Hopefully the other issues will be resolved after this gets sorted, too. She does sound like she knew what she was doing and was doing her best to help Ollie
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 11, 2021 19:39:40 GMT
I'm so glad this worked out! Phew!
I wonder if the beginnings of this might have been overlooked at his last dental - it makes you wonder if it was in an awkward location anyway.
Did you ever start him on vitamin d? Since he is rapidly throwing up spurs I would get him on some drops if you haven't already. I used to even use calcium powder or drops when the diet of my oldies got sketchy due to them wanting to eat carbs.
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Post by hpdegus on Oct 11, 2021 21:11:58 GMT
So so happy they were able to fit him in today. And very pleased with this vet.
Wouldn't surprise me if it's been hidden there for a while. No idea how long, but kind of hoping its been there since the beginning as a root cause of all this.
Yep, he's been on it for quite a while now. I'd need to find that thread to see exactly how long. It's fallen slightly by the wayside the past few days since he's been very picky on what he'll eat. I'll have to look into the calcium powder as well!
So Ollie is VERY unhappy with me and is showing it quite clearly. I haven't seen him eat anything since the dental and he's nipped me when I've tried to give him anything. I think the shorter front teeth are throwing him off quite a bit.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 11, 2021 21:35:54 GMT
I wonder--I make my own calcium powder for my finches by grinding up the eggshells from boiled eggs. Use a small coffee grinder (that's never had coffee in it) and it gets fairly fine, when mixed in with other food (something like critical care would work) it makes it gritty, but not too bad.
What do you all think, is this okay for degus?
If so, after boiling eggs (for us), I peel the shells and let them air dry. I make sure there's no egg bits stuck to them, but don't worry too much about the membrane part. (I actually usually just put them in an open cup in my fridge, while I store up a bunch, the fridge dries them really well.) Then, when dry, I crush them by hand into smaller pieces and grind them in the little coffee grinder, then store them in a sealed container in the fridge (because I make bigger batches and keep this stuff a long time.)
If you're not a fan of boiled eggs, you can take the shells from raw eggs you have used for cooking, rinse them, put them in some water in the microwave and boil the shells that way for a few minutes to make sure there's no raw egg residue left, then dry and grind them.
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Post by teemu on Oct 12, 2021 14:55:52 GMT
I would expect calcium from egg shells to be fine for degus. The egg shells are essentially all calcium, with very small amounts of other constituents. They do contain some nutrients, but it's a very small amount. Boiling them will also get rid of any bacteria like salmonella. So I don't really see it causing any issues, especially since the amount an animal the size of degu would need is very small in any case. For example, a human's calcium needs can be satisfied (as I've just learned) by just half an eggshell a day, and even in that amount any other substances are very minor.
Of course, if you want to be sure, pretty much any pet store will sell mineral stones, which are pretty much just calcium meant for rodents and birds. It'd be easy to get one, break off small pieces as needed and grind them (maybe with a mortar and pestle since the amount is so small, or even putting the crumbs between two pieces of paper and gently mashing it up with a hammer) into powder.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 12, 2021 18:21:09 GMT
I suspect that degus would just ignore egg shell. I used to use Vetark Calci-dust, which I think was just very finely milled calcium carbonate. At the time I weighed it all out and figured out dose rates to bring things like dried veg back to ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio. Essentially, you are limited by the amount that will actually stick to any item of food, and this meant that it was quite difficult to get the correct amount to stick and virtually impossible to overdose when you only apply to treats.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 12, 2021 18:39:19 GMT
I suspect that degus would just ignore egg shell. I used to use Vetark Calci-dust, which I think was just very finely milled calcium carbonate. At the time I weighed it all out and figured out dose rates to bring things like dried veg back to ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio. Essentially, you are limited by the amount that will actually stick to any item of food, and this meant that it was quite difficult to get the correct amount to stick and virtually impossible to overdose when you only apply to treats. you know, I wasn't even thinking of giving them a piece of egg shell. They might just like it. Wild animals chew up eggshells and bones and antlers. Is why you rarely find shed antlers in the woods, even with so many deer around, and if you do, they're usually pretty severely destroyed by being chewed on. Has anyone ever looked into, or written about giving degus and other small rodents pieces of antler to chew on, like you do for dogs? Maybe in the German degu community? Would provide not just calcium and other minerals, but something to do and something to wear down teeth on.
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