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Post by degunewbie on Apr 5, 2021 19:55:52 GMT
Hi all,
So this Easter weekend I thought I could fast-track Sarah and Mary because they were doing so well on their introductions, spending an hour easily with each other, mostly ignoring. As I spent it all at home, I have spent the whole time with them, so thought it was safe to experiment with how they would behave in the cage together. So on Friday, after they spent an hour together fine, I decided to let them share their cage at long last, with me watching 24/7 - the cage is in my room, so no problem.
Well, Saturday, Sunday and half of Friday (when they started to share) were perfect. Loads of grooming and snuggling, sleeping together keeping each other calm, all happy. But today has been hell for a few hours.
Out of nowhere, they suddenly are fighting, and I don't have a clue why. It seems both of them have initiated a fight, but it seems largely to be Mary now. There are different types of fights that have gone on. One is chasing with a couple of bum bites. The other one is more one walks up to the other, they go face to face and do the boxing. The other type is where they seem to be scuffling and then 1 of them gets on the others back (seems always to be Sarah) and is scratching the others back while mounted, like she is digging, and biting the neck. A couple of times this has also ended with them both going to rest where one of them rests on the others back. Also they sometimes end up grooming each other (yes, even immediately after, going from fighting to grooming in an instant).
The one with the mounting and clawing the back is most distressing. Yes, normally it is Sarah (not necessarily starting it, but certainly she is the one who ends up mounting) and then Mary is running in circles trying to get her off but Sarah doesn't.
I think Sarah is winning most the fights, but that hasn't stopped Mary at all, who seems to be initiating all of them now.
I really can't keep up. I'm breaking it up sometimes, other times leaving it a few seconds and it settles. I really don't know what's best to do. I get that there needs to be dominance established, but why now, and why are they going at it so hard? No blood has been drawn yet, and no fur balls of death if they look like what I am thinking. Should I separate them tonight before bed? Normally they sleep and they make a lot of sounds when they fight so hopefully it would wake me up if they did, but is it worth the risk?
They just had one while I was typing and have now settled with Mary lying on Sarah's back. They are having a nap now this second, but I don't have much confidence it will last.
I think I might have screwed this up big time. Am I going back to square one?
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 5, 2021 20:02:09 GMT
You were maybe a little quick in your process . . . and have put them in to a rapid acceleration toward settling the issue of dominance. It sounds very active, and could result in a lot of bites. I would recommend that you give them both a very thorough looking over to see if there are a lot of bite marks. You need to brush the fur forward in order to see any bites. Their fur is so thick, it easily conceals bite wounds. It is helpful to know how much is there, to be able to judge how aggressive they are being with each other.
Have you seen any sign of the FBOD?
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Post by savvy on Apr 5, 2021 20:05:37 GMT
This sounds like it could be dominance fighting and they are sorting out the hierarchy within the cage. Unless it leads to bloodshed, you may have you let them sort it out for themselves. The fact that they are settling down together is a good sign.
If they fighting is getting out of hand a bang on the side of the cage or a firm shout of 'no' should help affirm that you are the top goo.
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Post by savvy on Apr 5, 2021 20:06:27 GMT
Sorry DC, cross posted.
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Post by degunewbie on Apr 5, 2021 20:07:31 GMT
I haven't seen any signs of it yet, I don't think. What exactly does it look like? Face-to-face rolling I haven't seen. Just standing arguments and the mounting running. I will try inspect. I'm going to let them sleep for the second, as they are resting on each other, but they will likely be up again in a few minutes so I can investigate any marks, so will post the results soon
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Post by degunewbie on Apr 5, 2021 21:15:12 GMT
I managed to get hold of Mary (Sarah really isn't that happy about being picked up). And Mary looks fine. I think I found 1 whiter scratch, but that's maybe a scar from old fighting, I know she fought before?
I don't know how I'll catch Sarah without distressing her? I can see she has a little bit of scruffed fur on her face which could be a scratch though.
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Post by teemu on Apr 5, 2021 21:46:39 GMT
Could you lure her into something like a sand bowl or with a snack? Usually it's easiest to catch degus if you make them think they want to climb onto your hands anyway, so enticing them with something they like a lot works best.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 5, 2021 22:09:43 GMT
If you have a colander, it's handy to drop over a goo. I agree with Savvy, though. They need to sort out their hierarchy, and the fact that they'll "fight" and then curl up with each other is a good sign. We as humans like to think we can control our goos so that there is never any grumble or disagreement. Unfortunately, that's just not normal for goos!
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 6, 2021 16:46:00 GMT
If there are injuries or you are very concerned, you can rewind and separate them for a while and then resume more slowly. We know now that his hurdle is going to need to be overcome for your girls at some point, so it's a matter of allowing that to happen while juggling stress, risk, speed etc, so to a degree it is personal to you how you want to proceed.
The two become locked together in a FBOD and they roll around like that trying to bite each other.
There probably isn't a way to examine Sarah without stressing her out. You may find it easier to catch her by luring her into a tube and then plopping her out into your hands or a towel to look at her.
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Post by degunewbie on Apr 8, 2021 20:14:57 GMT
Thanks everyone, sorry for the delay in getting back, theres been a lot going on, but I have been reading all your messages and used them.
I did manage to catch Sarah in the sand bath the other day, following the suggestions, my sand bath has a small entry hole so was perfect. Though she really didnt like me confusingly trapping her, handling her and then probing her. She didnt look injured anywhere, but it was a quick check. It's for her own good. It's annoying you cant explain things to them.
Since that day though, there hasnt been aggression that I've seen, that I can say for certain. I have been out the room for 3-5 hours a day now, because of back to work, so I dont know if something else happens. I have a security camera for them, but the video doesnt save, I just get movement alerts which I never notice then and there, so it's too late when I open the app or go to visit.
From what molletteuk described I havent seen the FBOD... I just saw Mary many times running around in circles as Sarah is savagely attacking her back, which was the closest fighting to the description.
But, from what I have seen, it seems to have resolved itself. I really dont know how. They couldn't have sorted out a hierarchy issue in one day?
I've only now seen them be snuggly with each other past couple of days - also I've seen sarah being top of the pile, and also mary being top, so not sure if that makes sense for the hierarchy situation. I've seen a few surprise jabs and couple of seconds long scuffles, but they easily could be play now, because they arent long and they dont seem on edge after, and these I've only seen maybe 3 or 4 of since monday? I'm really confused by what's happened and what they are doing now. I know degus are famous for being confusing, but they really could be more helpful here. But I feel more confident in that they are safe at the minute, but still want to spend most my time near them just in case.
It is shocking how brutal they were, literally bighting and the worst, seeing Sarah's repeated digging and biting of Mary's back, where she had no escape, and now they are fine. I love them both, but they are being difficult.
Fyi I know I posted about Mary's cough a while ago, and just wanted to update. The cough did continue, but I actually found more dust that was settling in some places, so will be more conscious of those teeny pockets it could gather. I got a dust extractor too, and put it on for 8 hours a day by the lower cage, to see if it can help it. I think you guys were right it was an environment of that cage thing because when I removed the divide I have seen Sarah cough a few times since. I didnt want to update too early, i got the dust extractor last week, and it didnt instantly change, but I have noticed a difference growing gradually, and neither has recently coughed (since tuesday maybe), but it could easily change. Will see how it goes; if it takes a turn where either starts to cough again I will have to take them to the vets. I'll book an appointment tomorrow, for a few days time, so it's ready and waiting if needed (obviously will cancel in as much advance as makes sense, so they can see other pets).
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Post by bouncy on Apr 13, 2021 8:56:10 GMT
It sounds like your ladies are happy! Who piles on who is irrelevant to hierarchy, I guess it depends on who gets comfy first. I've found alphas top, bottom, sandwiched, or not even in the pile!
Which camera are you using?
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Post by degunewbie on Apr 13, 2021 18:04:31 GMT
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Post by bouncy on Apr 13, 2021 20:29:08 GMT
Cool! You should be able to turn off the movement notifications in the app. If you put a micro sd card in the slot, you should be able to record  |
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Post by moletteuk on Apr 14, 2021 10:07:18 GMT
I'm so pleased They really can sort out heirarchy in a day, more or less anyway! The jabs and scuffles probably are related to dominance, but that's normal for degus and isn't a bad thing. You have to sort of think of it as a means of communication for them, they can't really have a verbal row so they just do a bit of pushing and shoving, and the bit to remember is that it doesn't mean for them what it would between humans, they really can move on immediately from a shove and a quick box. Think of it as them settling things, solving an issue, rather than creating or continuing an issue. At least while they seem good and things aren't escalating anyway! |
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Post by degunewbie on Apr 14, 2021 19:18:16 GMT
I'm actually really happy to hear that. Because I must admit a couple of times when they have a little fisty cuffs, for a couple of seconds, that doesnt look brutal and no shrieking, I have begun to have found it a bit cute. I felt a bit bad about that, because I was worried about the escalation, but if that's normal, then I feel less bad haha.
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Post by bouncy on Apr 14, 2021 19:30:03 GMT
Really, don't panic. My delinquent group has been together since the youngest two were five weeks old. One has been testing his place in the group recently, which has resulted in fisticuffs of what could be described as FBOD (rolling on the floor, locked together by front paws and teeth). They break when I get there, and are cuddling again 10 seconds later having been put back in their place by the goo in question and me!
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