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Post by degunewbie on Mar 20, 2021 14:01:51 GMT
Hi all, So Mary has been here since Tuesday now; that's flown by. I would say this frantic sound from Sarah (who is currently at the top) happens a couple times a day. The bar chewing first night was lots, but isn't too much now. She only chews the bars in that lower square, so I am fairly certain she is just trying to break into the lower cage (her old hood), rather than bored or annoyed at the lesser space at this point (I think). It is quite hard to hear, but can you hear her little squeaks in the background as she chews. What do they mean? She sometimes does softer gentler squeaks in that area, while not chewing bars, so I think they are more approachable squeaks. But what does this squeak mean, is she threatening Mary or is she just expressing a bit of panic/frustration, or something else? drive.google.com/file/d/1H5QcKHPWtQd063EJ9oJCwQplSv-cgjaM/view?usp=sharingAlso, just for those of you who were interested about Mary's eye. No discharge so far, but I imagine there will be at some point. And now I have seen her, I am fairly confident this is a genetic thing (or development in the womb problem - though I have no experience and am not a doctor haha). Her skull doesn't seem as symmetrical overall, her nose is slightly bent inwards, you can tell this especially when she sniffs, her cheek doesn't pop out as much on the smaller eye side. And also her foot on that side seems to have 2 stubbed toes without nails (the middle 2 toes - but the whole foot looks a little stubby too). Also I think that her jaw on that side seems to stick out a bit more, I don't think she is chewing straight, but her front teeth are fine, and the RSPCA did check her teeth. She's beautiful, all the same, and despite this is actually much more accurate in her movements and is much more agile than dopey Sarah haha. Sarah literally could fall on her back while standing still. She is also just generally a very chill degu. She largely ignores Sarah's ruckus, plods about, likes a nap, when I open the cage I can see she is generally already wanting to jump out and have an explore. She enjoys healthy foods unlike Sarah, and she has even let me give her a little leg scratch! Her personality feels like the perfect compliment to Sarah's so I am really hoping their match works out in a couple weeks' time.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 20, 2021 14:19:16 GMT
Also, I was all concerned about Sarah being a sweet sensitive soul, and not getting pushed around by any new degu. Well, it has turned out it is Sarah who is the little tyke. In the video, can you see I have a folded over mat. I got this for Sarah because it is a natural body warmer, so while she was alone, I thought this might help. Well I ended up putting it in when Mary got here, across the shelf with the divide. But Sarah was trying to pull it through and ripping it up so I had to take it from her side. She still tries to pull it through.
I also put hay for Mary there, a different type. Sarah was pulling it through the bars so I put some at the top for Sarah. She went to it, rejected it and went back to trying to pull through Mary's.
Same thing with the woven ball. I put that in for Mary, and Sarah has done all the chewing, pulling it to the bars.
Mary just isn't bothered at all though, and lets her get on with it.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 21, 2021 11:42:50 GMT
I'm sorry, I can't hear the squeaking on the video, I can just hear the rattling. Maybe somebody else can make it out? If it sounds a bit frantic, I would guess she wants to get to Mary.
Sarah chewing and stealing stuff from Mary is probably to do with her wanting contact with Mary, rather than rebellion or naughtiness. Although, of course, all degus are tykes lol!
Nice to hear a bit more about Mary, sounds like she is settling in well. Do keep an eye on her chewing and teeth if there is some skull deformity, hopefully non of her differences will cause her a problem.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 21, 2021 15:43:47 GMT
Yeah, it is quite hard to make out, thanks for trying!
Aww bless, I hope that's the case! Sarah is also pulling stuff down (like toilet paper) into that square, perhaps even making a nest next to Mary, so you could be on to something there. Maybe she is just trying to be close. Bless her.
I'll keep an eye out. She seems to be even more of a nibbler than Sarah at the minute, but definitely I will watch her.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2021 10:56:32 GMT
Throw in some extra nest material - an extra nest next to Mary is a good thing.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 22, 2021 18:36:52 GMT
Will do! Thanks
Moletteuk, I think it was you who also said the hamster cage might be too small as well (though it is a relatively big one). I had an idea but wanted your thoughts. I was thinking about pairing them on the floor with me sitting there, cordoned off with cardboard, it is a bigger space. However, I would also like to give Mary some time on the floor with me tomorrow, as I think she wants some more interaction, and free space. But if I do that, will the floor space then not be a "neutral ground" when it comes to pairing? What do you think?
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 22, 2021 19:00:48 GMT
Oooooohhhh!!!! Just spotted Sarah was having a little bit of a nap down in the square. I shouldn't have looked too hard, it made her jump around a bit, so it made her perk up, so she has gone for a run. Mary is having a nap in the hammock next to the square. It's so good to see them having a nap by each other.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 22, 2021 19:32:36 GMT
Sounds great I think a condoned off space on the floor would be better for an intro than the hamster cage, I think it will be lower stress and allow you better access. I think you should be fine to let either of them try the floor out in advance, it shouldn't be enough time for them to feel like the floor is 'their' space and there will likely be plenty of other smells on the floor anyway. Have you been swapping substrate and/or sharing sand yet? I'm not actually the intros expert, and they might advise more caution, but with things going well so far I think you can start progressing now.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 22, 2021 20:16:00 GMT
Thank you!
OK, that will be the plan going forward then. I have been swapping substrate, in fact I'm running out of substrate to swap. And yeah, I have been sharing the sand, and I must admit, it has got disgusting. There is so much poo in there, it's going to end up more poo than sand haha. How degus do it, I will never know. My other thought was to switch their cage, on Tuesday/Wednesday, as in put Mary at the top and Sarah at the bottom, for the coming days, to properly spread the territory.
I'm going to leave the intro.s to next weekend, or maybe next Monday or Tuesday to give it a full 2 weeks, that I think it was deguconvert who suggested. I am really worried about rushing it at this point, because the idea of it not working, and having to send Mary back, is just absolutely horrifying right now. I really can't send Mary back, she is just too much goodness.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 22, 2021 20:50:26 GMT
Sarah is now lying peaceful right next to the bars that Mary is propped up against. Mary is just nibbling some hay while Sarah is peaceful right next to her. I can't look too close in case it breaks it up, but Mary's tail might even be through the bars (judging by her angle), and they might be fur-to-fur they are that close. Heaven right now, I haven't seen them so calm, silent and relaxed this close to each other yet.
Right, I'm going to get less excited now. It's all about time and doing it right
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 22, 2021 21:11:30 GMT
OK, last excited post I will write, then I need to be a cool cucumber. Mary and Sarah are standing face to face quietly, and Mary is nibbling at the bars, maybe she is trying to help Sarah break in to her cage?
OK, excitement over. Step by step
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 23, 2021 10:31:40 GMT
Aww, that's lovely Go ahead and pick the poos out the sand or sieve it, I'm sure the smells will remain, you won't need the actual poos at this point. We don't recommend switching the goos into the other half of the cage, it can be unsettling for them to switch territories. Just carry on making things comfortable for them to each hang out at the divider.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 23, 2021 12:43:21 GMT
I couldn't even get the video to play, I'm afraid, but what you're describing sounds extremely positive!
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 23, 2021 15:13:43 GMT
Things are sounding very much like they are going in the desired direction! SO EXCITING!
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 25, 2021 19:06:28 GMT
I've got everything crossed! thanks guys. I had an accident yesterday, but it gave me a good lesson at least haha. I was swapping substrate, and I had both doors open and was crouched in the lower cage. Clever little Sarah took the opportunity to jump on the hammock attached to the below cage door, and Mary was on the half platform right by her. EEP! They were eye-to-eye. I had a little panic and managed to shoo Sarah to jump back up to her cage. But for that moment they were together, and didnt attack for that brief moment, so that's good! Not much but still good! Anyway, I am sorry but I actually have one more question (especially for deguconvert, I read your guide). On their big day, when I let them hang out, I was told that you should introduce them over the course of the day, and once they can be together for 30 minutes they should be good to go in together. Can I just check, this definitely is supposed to happen over the same day? So for example: - I have them out for 10 minutes, then they fight so I put them back - an hour later I can try again, and have them out for 15 minutes, then they fight so I put them back. - and so on until they are happy together for 30 minutes, then I clean out the cage, sprinkle a handful of their old substrate, and put them in. What if the first time I have them out they are happy for an hour, no fighting, can I clean the cage and put them together straight away (optimistic I know)? Would it be better to be giving them a bit of time together more gradually over a few days? Sorry, last question! Thank you
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 25, 2021 19:41:59 GMT
Also, quick note just because I think someone might be interested in this behaviour too.
With the poo in the bath situation, one thing I've noticed is Sarah eats more of it. I havent seen Sarah eat poop yet, but she seems to like it now, ever since she started sharing this bath. I havent been alarmed because I read that was normal to eat poo? Mary eats poo exclusively out the sand bath as well, but I cant judge if that's normal for her, because she is the new one. I havent seen either eat any poo outside of the bath, not once.
I have taken out a lot of the poop now, but left some, and its building up again (how do degus poo that much, it is crazy). But still, they eat away. I wonder if Sarah is eating more poop because it is Mary's?
Disgusting, I know haha.
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Post by bouncy on Mar 26, 2021 1:04:19 GMT
Lol the poo eating is a way of extracting as many nutrients from their fibrous diet. You may not always notice them eating it. Mine tend to curl their spines and eat directly from their bums (sorry!)
Let your goos' behaviour guide you. If they're happy, let them be. If there's the slightest show of aggression, end the meet. Just bear in mind that everything hunky dory out of the cage may not mean it'll be the same inside when there's established territory.
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 26, 2021 5:35:30 GMT
As Bouncy says, just because things are going well outside of the cage, doesn't guarantee they will go well inside. And conversely, because degus LOVE, LOVE, LOVE to be contrary . . . just because things go well INSIDE the cage, doesn't mean they will not fight when outside the cage.
I would start slow and then increase . . . meaning . . . have one meet a day when you start. Make sure you have a means of safely separating them if things go sideways . . . just as strong gloves for your hands and a good sized piece of cardboard that you can place between the girls so as to safely part them, and then a towel to drop on top of one to pick her up. If they are instantly aggressive . . . meeting again the next day probably shouldn't happen. Go back to just being side by side for a week. IF however things go OK . . . don't do a long meet, 10 minutes may well be enough, you want them to part on happy terms. If things continue to be good each day for say 5-7 days, add in a second meet each day. Keep the meets to about 10 minutes, for another 5-7 days. If things continue good, add in a third each day. If things continue good, start making your meets longer and longer, adding 5 - 10 minutes to each meet every day or two. This is slow . . . but in the large majority of cases, slow is by far the better path.
At this point, you may be able to put them in the cage and see how they do for part of a day. (You should also be swapping soiled substrate between their cages, just to make sure that they are accustomed to smelling each other in their sections of their cage.) If they pine for each other when you part them . . . they may be ready to stay together.
You may find that they bond much quicker than I am postulating here, so make sure you are reporting what you see, and hear, when they are meeting. Body posture and how they interact are very important and help us to know (as well as we humans are able that is) what is going on in their heads. Lots of introductions are both progressing and going backwards from day to day, so if this should happen (and it does quite a lot), don't get discouraged. It may mean that you see things going SO GOOD, and then they fall out because they have realizes that SOMEONE has to be dominant and they both want it, and suddenly you have to keep them completely apart, possibly out of sight of each other for a week or two, or even three. Often the second attempt progresses faster.
There will be chasing, humping and boxing . . . all are acceptable social behaviors, as you will have read. Be prepared for it. Hopefully there will be no sign of the FBOD, but just in case, that is why you have the gloves, the cardboard, and the towel.
Does that make it clearer?
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 26, 2021 11:37:22 GMT
It's really good if they are eating each others poo as they will be sharing their gut bacteria and increasing the diversity, which should be really beneficial for goos that have not had the best start in life.
A significant amount of our fighing and introduction info is aimed at re-introductions, which can be really rough, so personally, I am hoping for a much smoother ride for you. I would do the first meet one morning, so you can potentially do more meets the same day or watch them together for an extended period if it all goes well. Sarah and Mary are showing every indication they want to be together so your main potential stumbling block is just that one will need to submit to the other.
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Post by degunewbie on Mar 27, 2021 17:15:49 GMT
Ok, I have rushed it a little, a couple days off 2 weeks, but it just was going to be easier to set up a degu safe fortress on the weekend. So they've had their first meet! I must say, I think I was the more nervous of us 3, even screamed when I leant over to mary and sarah ran across, and I thought I might crush her.
They were out for 10 minutes. 0 problems. They were not even interested in each other. First they gave each other a little nose-to-nose sniff, then just went on with their business. Came back to each other a couple of times for a bum sniff... and that was about it in terms of their interaction with each other. Success I should think!?
Tomorrow I will try do one very early so I can squeeze in one at night.
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