I currently have 2 Degus - 1 New Degu? OR 2?

[yoelle]

Hi all,

I recently got 2 Degu females (One a 2 1/2 yr old retired breeder and the other is ~ a year) and have had them for about 2-3 months, but I had always planned to get three. I was planning on using this introduction strategy (deguworld.proboards.com/thread/2616) to introduce a juvenile from a local breeder. I have 3 levels so I was planning on cycling them as described in the guide with mesh cover the hole between floors and cycling their living conditions periodically (change the first 2 from bottom 2/3 to top 2/3 etc.). I have a CARA of 21,000 so I could house 4 but its ideal for 3 and I've only convinced my wife to let me get 3  . So I spoke with the breeder about getting 1 juvenile and she really recommended getting 2 so the newcomer wasn't scared or lonely before integration, and because a 2 vs 1 attitude can develop in the trio. I asked if it might be ok to try just 1 with the above strategy for a few weeks-a month and if it seems like its not going to go well then I could look for a new partner then, but she thought it should be 2 if I can and only 1 new if I really couldn't do 4 total. I want my girls to be happy most of all but its sort of a balance between my wanting them to have the 'recommended' size rather than the 'minimum' size and concerns about integration between 1 vs 2. I just wanted to pick other people's brains about their thoughts on this. People with more experience than me 

Thanks 

p.s. Then I have to go to see if I get vetoed by my wife 

[misscatafer]

Hi Yoelle, welcome to the forum

Are your current two degus living together and happily bonded?

The younger one is at a difficult age where they may be more prone to fighting and unsettled by changes to territory and living conditions. I would not reccommend changing them between floors, this would be very unsettling for both of them, plus you will have issues with hierarchy if different groups are "on top" as such. You may unwittingly cause issues between your pair and cause problems between them - degus are so sensitive to changes it is unreal.

Instead it is reccommended to put them side by side - but be very wary of this as degus are master escape artists and if they get through to each other it could be fatal. I say this from experience where a few years ago I was attempting to get two groups of 2 together - one group broke into the other half of the cage and one of my girls almost died.
Personally I would say wait until the younger degu is at least 2 before you consider any changes to the pair, you want to get through the adolescent phase and let them settle in with you, 3 months is still a relatively short amount of time for them to be getting used to you, each other and the set up.

I'm not good with CARA, what is the make and model of your cage please?

[deguconvert]

I get what the breeder is saying . . . and I totally understand what you want to do. I think they are about equal in my mind. They have about the same potential to succeed and to fail so far as introductions go.

I agree with Misscatafer, and think that already having a oneish year old female that will be in the middle of what is often a chaotic time for degus and their passions over dominance, could make the process of introductions much more difficult.

BUT . . . if you wanted to take two and then just love on them as two separate groups for a year and THEN try introductions, you could do that as well. Especially since you have a cage that meets the minimum for four. No one would be lonely. You can get to know them all really well. And you can then work on getting them familiar with each other at a future point when they are older and a little more settled.

I don't think I've helped you; at least not in the way you hoped for.

[yoelle]

Thanks misscatafer and deguconvert for the help so far! I am way out of my depth, but learning lots. So, I have learned that they are both about 2 years old. One was born spring the other fall of 2018. They are happily bonded and were a pair from a breeder. As for my cage, it is custom but I sort of slapped it together over a weekend when I first made it and looking back would make some changes. 3 floors x ~50cm by ~150cm.

Here are a few pics:
The girls:


Here it is before they moved in


Here it is a few week after they moved in. I initially did Carefresh throughout but have changed recently.


Her it is right now, I have changed to fleece floor w/ litter that they seem to mostly pee in, but they just poo where ever they please. I tidied it right before this cause they make big messes obv 


I am still making changes to their cage periodically like adding things for them to do and they seem to be handling it all well and are always right close by, looking curiously, as I put things in or clean the cage. I wasn't sure if adding a Degu(s) now would be better now while they are already making a big adjustment in their lives from living with the breeder to with me, or if it would be better to wait till these two have really settled in a long while before I get more. I have a new metal wheel coming soon.

Essentially my plan initially was to put a mesh cover on top of of the stairs, but I could definitely build something to split the middle floor if that would be best.

I would say they seem decently 'tame' and both will hop on and off my hand and sit there and eat but they don't like to be picked up so far. They will go on my shoulder but wont let me walk way with them yet  . I have a pen that we hangout in occasionally as well.

I know introductions can be hard and I'm ready to keep them divided as long as need be, but I would be happy if I could just get one so they have plenty of space.

So if I were to adopt more degus would it be best to get a juvenile or two for my 2 year-olds or something a little older like them?

Any and all thoughts appreciated 

Here is a youtube tour for those interested  :  

[misscatafer]

Your cage is brilliant! The space looks good, I love the toilet roll holder

That's easier if the younger degu is in fact much older than you initially thought. I would still say don't have degus on top of eachother. I did this in my cage and it was so stressful, constant bickering and difficulties with the groups trying to get to eachother. They need to be equal within the cage. So you will need to figure out a way of dividing your cage down the middle so the two groups can live side by side. Also be wary with mesh that if they can get to each other through the mesh you may get a few bitten toes - and my degus got through mesh to get to eachother.

If you really want to introduce more I would say go for a pair of young ones, but you need to be wary of this that you will then have to endure the adolescent phase with them as they age where they will be challenging the hierarchy within the group. I don't have much experience of introductions but to put it in perspective, my girls are now over 4 years old and I highly doubt they would accept any new degus into their click - a lot of it comes down to personalities.

You also need to be prepared that intros won't work out and then you will potentially be left with two groups of two, which would be better than having a young degu left alone unnecessarily. This is how I ended up with two groups, I rescued a 4.5 year old to go with my then 18 month old thinking they would accept her (being completely naive to just how clicky they are!), they didn't and I then had to adopt another lone degu to go with the older lone female. We then had to spend £££ modifying the cage to make it acceptable and safe for two groups. Unfortunately her cage mate has recently died so I am now left with a lone 8 year old who I know my girls won't accept and who is not well enough to put through intros.

But lots of people on here have had successful intros with degus of your age so I'm sure they can give more helpful advice. Sometimes it's useful to see what others have been through regarding intros.

[bouncy]

I remember this build! You researched and built your cage before you got your goos! Your ladies are lovely!

Your cage can certainly handle another one, but two will be pushing it, especially as your existing girls will be used to spreading out. If you could add another storey, though.....

[deguconvert]

I was thinking the same thing, Bouncy. Another level on there would be AMAZING! I mean, it is already amazing. It's a wonderful cage! BUT if you were to add another level, then you could take on two more and go slowly with introductions.

If you really don't want to do two more, I would look for a lone female of about 1.5 + years. Someone that would be glad to join others. Being a lone degu is not a natural state for them, as they are very social and are accustomed to living in a colony. A lone female will want to have degu companionship. The two girls you have . . . well . . . they will be more approachable at their age, but anyone you bring in will be a stranger, so they will have to adapt to her (or "their" if you get two) presence and then become welcoming . . . which can take a while. You will find intros easier if you refuse to have a timeline for it. When we dream they will be together in a week, or a month, but it doesn't happen . . . we get frustrated. The truth is, introductions can take many months. It isn't impossible, but it isn't usually easy.

[moletteuk]

I think either look for a full adult single who is already single or get a pair and extend the cage. Remember both scenarios have the risk that it doesn't work out which brings further commitments and space requirements. The cage is great

[deguconvert]

I should say that, there are introductions that go very well, and very quickly . . . they just aren't in the majority. They are rather rare. Usually they are between a male and a female, but even those don't all go smoothly. LOL!

I don't want to discourage you! You have a wonderful plan and hope, and it is definitely one that can be done! Degus are somewhat contrary in their nature and introductions . . . just don't go as straight forward as we usually want.

[yoelle]

You’ve given me lots to think about. I think if I split the cage I would put mesh halfway in the middle of the middle floor (maybe 2 layers with a centimeter in between) so one side would be top floor and half of middle and vice versa. Several people suggested that I could expand the cage, but at this point it would be a LOT harder to try to work on the cage and add a floor etc. so that would be more of a last resort, but if I end up getting 2 then that might be the long term solution. What are your thoughts on getting one juvenile and trying to introduce her to the other two over the course of a few months and then, if that doesn't seem to be making any progress, to find her a partner for the long-term and think about expanding? Would it be bad for her to be alone that long? I just feel like 3 means I don't have to expand ASAP and would be the "ideal" situation and I want to at least give it a chance to work before I sort of become committed to having to increase space long-term.

[winic1]

Someone correct me if I'm remembering wrongly, but I think this is the story?
We had a member who had two, then took in a third little one figuring it would be easy to introduce. Nope, didn't work. So, after a bit, she got another one to go with the single one. Nope, didn't work. Had to have 3 separate cages. After a while, got another one, and managed to pair it with one of the singles. Then I think she finally got yet another one to pair with the last lone one. Ended up with 3 separate pairs who just could not be introduced to each other, and three large cages to house them in.

If you start with one more, and it won't integrate with your pair, it may also not like another one that you bring in for it. Or it might be lonely and happy to see someone else. There really isn't any way to predict.
If you bring a pair in, they may get along with the existing ones, but if they don't, at least they're already paired, and no further introductions are needed.
Babies tend to take to new degus, and older degus to babies, more readily. But then when puberty hits and they have to re-settle their dominance order, things can get rough. Or not. No way to tell, for sure.

The only thing you can be sure of with degus is it won't go as you expect. No matter what you expect.

[yoelle]

I wish we had some statistics on introductions that might be interesting hahah. I definitely wouldn't want a situation like that where I ended up with multiple cages! The breeder I bought from previously had a new litter in August so I would be thinking of getting one of those to introduce, I'm not sure if that would be considered a baby or a juvenile but my hope was that she would at least be more readily accepted by the other girls, even if she ended up causing trouble as she went through the difficult phase when she gets older.

[bouncy]

If you were going to go down the pup route, the younger the better. I've successfully introduced two 12 week rescue pups to my solo goo, then introduced that same pair to two five week old pups. Both were on neutral territory and instant successes. The reason I went through this, though, is because I had a slightly older juvenile that I tried for a year to introduce to my existing trio.

We've also had an instance on here young pups being savagely attacked by their goo.

They really are fickle!

[deguconvert]

"Most" introductions end up successful . . . but they also go through twists and turns and stepping backwards. There is just no way to predict what you will experience and how long it will take. Usually we can interpret what is going on with good accuracy, and are able to help prevent things from going terribly wrong, if the owner will take the time to report here and take on feedback. Even then, there are things that take us all by surprise.

I guess what we are trying to say is, go for it, but be prepared for anything, because degus practically NEVER do what we expect.

EXCEPT with treats. They almost always take in as many treats as they can swindle out of us. Oh . . . and CHEWING! Degus will pretty much destroy anything they can get a tooth on.

These two things you can confidently expect to happen on a reliable basis.

[deguconvert]

TUMMY AND TOOTH!!

[bouncy]

The proviso with the treats is they eat, then bury for later. Unfortunately, they generally don't have a clue where they left them. I have to filter them out when I change their substrate!

[moletteuk]

It's difficult to say what introduction success rates are because being a forum people come to us with problems, but, the chances of difficulties are certainly significant, so you do need a plan b. Pets are supposed to be fun and enriching so don't do something that could cause a real headache in your life.

I suppose it depends somewhat on how easily available degus are in your area and how frequently rescues or singles come up, but in my opinion it's probably not fair to get a single pup to make your life better when you are risking making her life and your life worse.

The age of a pup being accepted as a pup by adults is unfortunately not a set thing either, 12 weeks is probably about the limit, but sometimes even at 6 weeks they aren't readily accepted.

[deguconvert]

Valid and important points, Moletteuk!