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Babies!
Sept 28, 2020 18:32:41 GMT
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Post by bouncy on Sept 28, 2020 18:32:41 GMT
Following on from the other comments, if you are able to get dad in quickly for his bits removal, he could be clear to stay with mum and female pups. You are likely already looking at a second litter on the way, though.......
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 28, 2020 21:46:34 GMT
Looking back, you said in your original post that you had no idea how old they are. I'm wondering if you could get a rough idea of the size of the male. An adult degu is typically about 15cm length in body and the same length in tail (If the tail has not suffered any loss in length, that is. A full length tail has a plumy tip that is like an elegant Asian paint brush.). Most degus will reach this size around the 6-7 months of age mark, and then will muscle out and continue to mature up to about 12 months of age. Some don't change a lot the later six months, but a lot of maturing in other respects takes place during that time.
Size will at least let use know if they are near to, or beyond, six months of age.
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Babies!
Sept 29, 2020 1:09:33 GMT
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Post by joannetunbridge on Sept 29, 2020 1:09:33 GMT
I was thinking about getting dad done, but now I have 3 more! I don't have space really for a second cage and I would have to separate the pups in a few weeks, but if she was done, I could keep them together. When I got them, they said dad (as we have now learned) was 3 mths and mom was 6mths. She did look slightly bigger than him when we got them.
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Post by savvy on Sept 29, 2020 2:42:48 GMT
You need to talk it over with a degu experienced vet before making any firm decisions. But please bear in mind that it would be 4 males against 1 female come breeding season. It doesn't make for a harmonious time for any of them.
Personally, I'd also have a word with the pet shop, they should be responsible for helping with the costs of extra food, vets bills etc as it was their mistake which has placed you in this situation.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 29, 2020 3:31:56 GMT
I hate to burst your hopeful plan for keeping them all together, but there are three issues that I can see with having the female spayed, and I would be remiss if I didn't say anything. Degus, male or female, require a vet experienced with neutering/spaying degus. The reason why is their anatomy is different from other rodents, and vets that have not researched or studied degus make the mistake of assumption that all rodents are the same, and this can result in death, penial prolapse, terrible infections, and a great deal of suffering. In addition to that, female degus have a much higher death rate (FROM THIS SURGERY) than do the males. Only once in my years here has a female been spayed, and that was in essence an emergency surgery. Female degus do not do well with the spaying surgery. If your female is already pregnant, it will be even more dangerous. Secondly, if you have one female in a cage with four males, there WILL be blood spilled. Not only will there be the normal dominance fighting that occurs between adolescent and young adult degus, but there will the increased hormonal demand for mating rights. Having her in with four males runs the risk of her having internal injuries through frequent and potentially combative sex, or badly injured/killed as a result of the fighting of the males around her. I am not overstating this. You will have her in a cage from which she cannot escape, pursued intently by all the males, especially as the pups grow older. At the very least she could die of exhaustion, and potentially malnutrition if she is too stressed to take time to eat enough to sustain herself. Let me give you one of my experiences. We had two males that impregnated two females that we had purchased and introduced to our males after being assured by the store manager that they were vet certified to be males. Three months in, one of our males decided he hated her. Even though he was blind from cataracts, he moved through the cage constantly sniffing her out. When he found her, he either jumped her and tried to fight, or he chased her until she managed to get away. We were already in the process of building a second large cage for the boys, and upon discovering what he was doing, we increased the push to complete the cage as soon as possible. It only took three days, but she lost a lot of weight in those three days, and was haggard and depressed when we removed the boys. Our cage was massive . . . three complete levels in a cage that was 80 inches long, 24 inches deep, and 64 inches tall. Each level was 80 X 24 inches in surface space, as well as ledges, and several large nesting boxes with the surfaces areas provided by the roof of each box. She had all kinds of places to run and to hide, but it wasn't enough space to keep her out of his focus long enough that she could rest and recover. And even if she did have moments to temporarily recover, it would have been cruel to leave her in there with him. He wanted her out or dead. (We did not have a small cage that we could temporarily place him in, nor the funds to get one after spending all that we had for the new cage build already in progress.) Your one female with four males in a cage that is probably smaller than ours was, it will be hell for her. Their focus on her will be every bit as intent as our one male was on our girl . . . multiplied by four. Third . . . the surface area required to house five degus. If you keep them all in one cage, you will in a short few months have five nearly full sized degus. Degus need a lot of space. They are built to cover a lot of distance, and in the wild they cover/run between three to five square km daily. They do this to gather food and to keep their colony safe. Being domesticated has not changed their physical characteristics. They need larger cages than what we are commonly told by pet stores, breeders, and even other forums. In Britain it has been common for the Thickets cage to be sold as a cage of sufficient size for degus, and in reality it isn't even large enough to meet the surface area needs of one degu. This link . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations . . . shows our cage size recommendations, which increase with each additional degu in the group. Five degus altogether need between 23,000 - 26,000 sq. cm surface area. If you were to have a cage that has five full levels, and each level is 100 cm X 50 cm, you would have a cage in the upper end of that requirement, having a total surface area of 25,000 sq. cm. Which is great, but even with all that space . . . I really DO NOT advise that you keep all four males and the female together. (One male with multiple females . . . totally different story.) Most cages require DIY efforts to bring them up to that standard. The vast majority of our forum members that tell us about their cages, including all the moderators and helpers, have started their/our experience with degus using cages that are way too small. We totally understand the frustrations, financial costs, and spatial challenges in our homes just to house these animals that are encountered. Perhaps you might want to talk to the manager at the pet store where you got your degus, and tell them about their mistake and the results. In the past when this kind of surprise event has been reported here, and it has happened a lot, the pet stores have offered a second cage free of charge, and sometimes additional food supplies. You may even want to consider asking them to take the pups if a second litter does in fact occur.
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Babies!
Sept 29, 2020 5:55:36 GMT
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Post by bouncy on Sept 29, 2020 5:55:36 GMT
Sorry, ditto the others - forgot all three pups were boys!
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Post by moletteuk on Sept 30, 2020 9:55:23 GMT
How are mum and pups doing? Is dad still in with them? Unfortunately if he is, there is likely to be a second litter, and so you need to get a grip on the situation ASAP to prevent it getting out of control. Spaying mum is not an option and would not solve anything as you can't have multiple males living with females. Also the second litter may contain females allowing natural groupings with no neuterings anyway. You are going to need a second cage, at least temporarily, unless you do some drastic rehoming pretty soon. I'm assuming the pups are all boys, but if any are female, this would obviously change things. If there is no second litter, your options are to rehome the pups, neuter and keep dad, and keep mum and dad together. This requires you separating dad now and for 6 weeks until he is infertile. Or you could rehome mum and keep dad and pups together. This would require a large cage offering a minimum of 2 square metres of floor space to be adequate for four degus (two degus need 1.2 sq metres of floor space btw). Dad would still need isolating to minimise risk of second pregnancy until pups are 6 weeks. If there is a second litter, then that increases the chance of female pups and so nobody would necessarily would need neutering. You would still need a second cage to isolate dad just before the second birth, and this time it's a medical requirement to protect the health of the mum, a third litter would be dangerous for her (the second isn't recommended, particularly as she is so young). At six weeks from now the current pups would need to be separated from mum, they could go in with dad, assuming he accepts them (he should). Another six weeks after that mum would give birth. If there are females they can stay with mum permanently if you have a big enough cage. Male pups get separated at 6 weeks again. Depending on how many males you end up with, they get rehomed in groups of 3 ideally. If you feel the pet shop is adequate, they ought to take any degus needing rehoming back from you. The pet shop also ought to provide a second cage for you, but you might struggle in practice with an independant shop.
I'm sorry there is no easy fix and the possibility of the second pregnancy makes planning difficult.
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Post by savvy on Sept 30, 2020 10:00:59 GMT
I hate to burst your bubble, but getting mum done would create more problems than it would solve. It's not just about stopping pregnancies, it's about hierarchical position.
I'm going to tell you about Reggie, and the story is a little graphic, so please accept my apologies for that.
Reggie came to me just under 2 years ago when I lost little Bumblebee to a heart/chest problem. The pet shop told me that Reggie was a rogue male who had attacked and seriously injured 4 cage mates, as far as I can gather, they didn't survive their injuries. And it happened really fast.
So Reggie was caged alone and had been alone for about 5 months and would have been about 2 months old at the time of what can only be described as a mass brawl.
I got Reggie home and happily housed in the cage next to Dixie, my now 9 year old handsome boy. Reggie took to Dixie almost straight away. It was then that I worked out what had really happened in that cage when Reggie was a pup. Another moderator on this forum came over to see us and confirmed what had happened.
You see, Reggie wasn't a rogue male degu, Reggie was a girl. And just the presence of one female degu in a group of 4 male degus had caused all the problems. The males had been fighting over Reggie, and Reggie had been fighting them off, because at 2 months old, she wasn't really ready to breed. Research fur ball of death fighting and you'll get an idea of what must have happened.
If you got your degus in June, you haven't been through breeding season with them yet. Breeding season usually starts in about November/December time and last for about 5-6 months. Anyone who has male degus will tell you what that time is like even in all male groups. There's a lot of squeaking, a lot of chasing, a fair bit of low grade fighting/boxing, and a lot of humping and 'self gratification' - yep, male degus can do that! Now imagine a female thrown into that mix and you have a blood bath.
I'm not saying any of this to upset you, I'm just trying to tell you what happened to Reggie.
Male and female degus can live together, but only if the ratio is one male *and one female, or a group of females to one male. Apart from single sex groups, any other mix doesn't work.
Edit: *as in pair, not a group. Just to clarify.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 10, 2020 18:47:31 GMT
Joannetunbridge, I'm just wondering how you and your degus are doing? We've not heard from you in a while. Your pups will be two weeks old ish, and busy little bodies. How are things going?
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Babies!
Nov 11, 2020 22:28:20 GMT
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Post by joannetunbridge on Nov 11, 2020 22:28:20 GMT
Hi everyone. So I got dad neutered. $455 at the vet! I am keeping the babies (hubby relented, lol) and just hoping she not pregnant again, the new cage is coming tomorrow. What's the best way to separate them? I hate the thought of just taking them away. I think they are about 7 weeks, give or take a day or two. I tried asking the pet store for some money towards the bills but they don't want to know.
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Post by bouncy on Nov 11, 2020 23:38:48 GMT
I think our members on the other side of the pond will have to help re pet shop, but we have legal recourse in the UK because we're buying X males and they got it wrong, or didn't know one was pregnant!
Regarding the split, I would recommend dividing by sex. Dad can go in with either group now he's had his bits done!
Oh, and photos please!
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 12, 2020 7:56:06 GMT
When did you have Dad neutered? They recommend six weeks from date of surgery to be sure that all Dad's swimmers are gone. How is he doing, post surgery? Is the new cage for housing everyone in two groups? I would say the pups are definitely old enough to be parted from Mom now. Mom would probably like to have Dad in with her.
WOULD LOVE to see "Family" photos!!
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Post by joannetunbridge on Nov 12, 2020 15:19:07 GMT
He's 6 weeks post surgery and doing great! My plan is to keep mom and dad together and the 3 boys (sam, merry and pippin) together. IF she has any more, I was thinking of a colony of boys and a colony of girls, with dad.
Not sure how to add photos! Lol
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Post by savvy on Nov 12, 2020 15:41:59 GMT
That sounds like a good plan.
I'm not great with tech so I'll leave it to someone more computer savvy to tell you how to add photos.
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Post by bouncy on Nov 12, 2020 16:53:44 GMT
To post photos, you need to upload them into a hosting site, like Google photos, then copy and paste the link!
Alternatively,use the reply button at the top right of the reply box and attach them using the tab at the top.
If these don't work, email them to me, and I'll host them for you!
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 12, 2020 20:03:39 GMT
I am THRILLED to hear that Dad is doing really well!! Sounds like a solid plan for now and IF there should be more pups! Well done!!
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Babies!
Nov 18, 2020 1:56:43 GMT
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Post by joannetunbridge on Nov 18, 2020 1:56:43 GMT
Everyone is separated. Kind of sad to break up a family. :0( Is it better to keep the cages closer together so they can still see and hear each other? Mom is a little out of sorts but I guess that's to be expected. I put her own nest box in as is and didn't disturb it, but she's not using it. I think it will take her a day or two to get used to the new situation. I gave the boys a new nest box.
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Post by savvy on Nov 18, 2020 2:12:52 GMT
Were all of the pups male? Any female ones can stay with mum and dad.
Yes, keep the cages close, it will help both groups.
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Babies!
Nov 19, 2020 23:53:53 GMT
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Post by joannetunbridge on Nov 19, 2020 23:53:53 GMT
All boys. Thanks.
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