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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 9:39:02 GMT
My two degu sisters whom I adopted 1 1/2 years ago at age four were fighting early this morning and wouldn't stop! They were boxing and one has a little bit of blood on the side of her nose! I gave her a dust bath and also was able to get a little saline solution on it. They have boxed many times in the past but it was more like play (they chirp and sing!) and they stopped after a minute. They always sleep together and got along very nicely. This was unlike anything I'd seen. One was on the wheel and the other kept going over to the wheel and they'd box and one would knock the other over, then repeat. They would not stop and when I saw the bit of blood I knew I had to intervene. They are now in separate cages (thankfully I had a spare). I have the cages placed next to each other. The last time I changed their bedding was four days ago. There were no environmental changes. Just out of the blue, it seems. Edited to add: One kept sniffing the others butt between boxing matches.
It's not breeding season now, right? What would cause this to happen after all this time? I would appreciate your suggestions on how to proceed, like when can I safely put them back together!
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Post by savvy on Aug 8, 2020 12:54:07 GMT
Oh dear! This sounds like an escalated difference of opinions between them.
They do have their fallings out every so often, its quite normal. But you are going to have to let wounds heal and tempers cool before getting them back together. Oh and remove the sand bath if they have open wounds, you don't want the sand getting in any cuts.
Wait and see how they interact between the bars before trying a face to face. Sometimes they realise pretty quickly that they are missing the other, sometimes it takes a while longer.
I'm afraid it's going to have to be a watch, wait and see. Think of them as naughty children, they will be in the 'they started it!' phase right now.
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 13:08:03 GMT
Thank you. I don't leave the dust bath in; I only place it in the cage during bathing time. I thought the dust (I use Oxbow) would be OK because when I had guinea pigs and accidentally cut too close to the quick (happened only 2x in decades of ownership) the vet said to use flour or styptic powder to stop the bleeding. I thought maybe it would have a similar affect when she rolled around in it. I won't do that again.
I'm encouraged to hear you say that there is hope for them. I feel heartbroken seeing them separated since they have been the best of friends. Right now they are sleeping and haven't paid any attention to each other. Is it best to wait until they show interest in one another through the bars?
Thank you again for your quick and hopeful reply!
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 8, 2020 15:35:46 GMT
The issue with the sand is that it is full of bacteria that can be absorbed direct into the wound.
Could this have been an argument over the wheel that got out of hand? Do you have room for a second wheel?
Do you weigh them regularly? are they both in good health? - sometimes if the dominant degu has a health issue the second degu can challenge for dominance out of the blue.
Some degus still come into heat over the summer and they are usually excitable and exercise more in heat, so perhaps that could have contributed to an argument over the wheel.
It's pretty good that they are already ignoring each other, report back on how they are with each other tomorrow.
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 15:43:18 GMT
I don't weigh them but both are in good health. The dominant degu is the one who bit the other. It's very possible it was a wheel argument, but sadly I don't have room for two wheels in one cage because of where I placed ledges and hidey houses. I will say that four days ago when I cleaned out their cage I did a deep cleaning of the corner near the wheel where they routinely mark. Also, there hadn't been any late night wheel biting for a long time but that happened the night before. Could my cleaning of that one corner have contributed to this fight, maybe?
I didn't realize their ignoring each other was a good sign (they are both up and active right now)! I'll update tomorrow!
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 19:27:55 GMT
I tried putting them together again. It had been about 12 hours since separating them and they were indifferent to each other through the cages. (I read the section on re-introductions). I put them in the second more neutral cage which has a new wheel in it. As soon as I put the less dominant degu in the neutral cage where the instigator/doninant degu has been the past 12 hours, the dominant degu immediately looked a bit distressed, started sniffing her sister's butt as she followed her around while she, her sister, just seemed happy to be reunited. She (less dominant) went on the wheel and they started boxing again which they've done since I've owned them but unlike all of those times but like this morning when it got ugly they weren't singing or making happy sounds. I was worried and didn't want it to escalate so I separated them once more. I think I will wait at least 24 hours before trying again.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 8, 2020 19:38:26 GMT
You may need to wait to see them sleeping beside each other through the bars. It really sounds like the dispute is wheel related, and which has caused a grudge to form. I know you cannot fit a second wheel in with the current setup that you are using. Would you be willing to post a photo/photos of your cage? (You would need to use a third party hosting site to do this, as we do not have the space needed to host it ourselves on the forum.) Perhaps we can help you come up with ideas that will allow for another wheel to be incorporated. What cage do you use?
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 20:00:02 GMT
Yes it does seem that way. I do not know the name of the maker of the cage and can't see it anywhere (I'm in the US). I can modify the set-up to include a second wheel if it comes to it which sounds like it might. Next time I put them together I will put two wheels in one cage and see if that makes a difference. I'll report back when I try again. Thank you.
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 20:29:45 GMT
By the way, is the wheel issue a common degu point of contention? They used to love playing and running on the wheel together.
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Post by hpdegus on Aug 8, 2020 20:54:40 GMT
The wheel thing can be a huge issue, at least from what I've seen! If you don't have room for a second wheel in the cage, would it be possible for you to get an extra wide wheel so they can both run comfortably together?
I've also had a group of brothers randomly start fighting (got to point of FBOD) recently. They go at it every once in a while, but they're all living happily together (fingers crossed). So I completely understand the stress and confusion you're going through!
Do you have a bathtub, or something else they've never been in before, that you could use as a neutral meeting ground? That seems to help reset my boys sometimes.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 8, 2020 21:16:48 GMT
Our boys used to fight over the wheel, and we ended up having to have three wheels to keep the peace. Then they took to liking only one of the three wheels. Then the dominant one began tipping it over. Every time I would correct it, he would come over some time after I had left and tip it over again. I learned that because I started hiding to see who was doing it, and it was always him. A few months after that, all the boys were tipping the wheels, and then using the wheel to build nests in. LOL! I eventually just removed them all.
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Post by bouncy on Aug 8, 2020 21:37:15 GMT
Wheels are definitely an issue! I ended up giving each group two, and they STILL argue. Apologies for repetition, but which cage are they in, and do you have any cooling surfaces like ceramic tiles in with them?
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Post by mschips on Aug 8, 2020 22:35:44 GMT
That's so funny and interesting re the wheel stories you all shared!
Again I don't know the manufacturer of the cage. It was sold as an extra large chinchilla/rabbit cage. It doesn't have any tiles. I placed ledges all around the cage, hidey houses and they have a playpen. I also have a bathtub.
Tonight I've had to separate the cages since they were biting the bars and obsessing on the other. I'm so sad because I know they miss each other. I'm nervous after reading the comments here that adding a second wheel may not solve the issue but I'll definitely do it when I place them together next. I'm just so sad for them. On the plus side they both are more interested in me than ever!
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Post by bouncy on Aug 8, 2020 23:07:46 GMT
Could you please post a picture of your cage(s)? It may help us.
In this hot weather, it might be they're hot and grumpy, wanting more space. Try putting a ceramic tile in the cage. You can usually buy a single tile as a sample from DIY stores. My lot love to sprawl on them in hot weather. If they take to them, you could even cool them in the fridge first!
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Post by mschips on Aug 9, 2020 7:47:45 GMT
Thank you. We have air conditioning so they don't get hot. I don't know how to post a pic via third party. I will update once they are together again with two wheels to see if that helps.
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Post by bouncy on Aug 9, 2020 11:32:22 GMT
You can just attach the actual photo using the "reply" box, rather than the "quick reply" one. If we get short of space, I'll rehost it at a later date
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Post by mschips on Aug 9, 2020 13:22:43 GMT
I just read this thread with great interest as well as sadness: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/22187/separation-brothers-permanently-advice?page=2I wonder if aging can contribute to a degu "divorce" for long-simmering issues since his degus were five and mine are five as well. I HAVE noticed, now that I really think about the past year and a half that the less dominant degu has been less submissive since I first adopted them. Their previous home was not ideal. They were "cared" for by little kids under the age of ten, were fed sugary treats which I know from what they brought to the shelter and the submissive degu was terrified of people. It was months before she wasn't cowering in her hidey house when around people and that she trusted me enough to eat from my hands. So yes, now that I think about it she was becoming less tolerant of being humped just as the person wrote in that older thread. Unlike his degus these are two sisters. I set up two wheels in the cage this morning and tried to reunite them once again. At first they rubbed noses and I was hopeful. They both saw that there were two wheels. Then the dominant degu began to lunge and try to bite her sister again when they weren't near the wheels so I separated them once more. I have ordered ledges, bed and other cage accessories so that there will be two separate but equal cages that can be kept side-by-side or moved if need be. Each cage measures 47" L x 23" W x 20" H, the height being a few inches below the RSPCA guidelines but it's the best I could find where I am. I did try the Midwest Nation Deluxe which is actually below the minimum size other than height and they were sliding down the ramp and it was too small to include their accessories. They have been very happy in the existing cage for the year and a half I've had them. bouncy I'd be happy to privately send you a photo once I have the new cages equipped as opposed to posting publicly since I'd like to keep pics of my home private, especially since I have spoken negatively about their prior owners. I hope that I am still welcome to post here if I don't publicly post a pic of the cage/s?
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Post by savvy on Aug 9, 2020 13:28:57 GMT
I wouldn't lose heart or hope just yet, it's only been a few days. There have been case where it has taken a few weeks to get them back together although there has also been the odd degu divorce. Degus do love to bare a grudge and it can take time.
We can guide you through the best steps to take and on occasions it may feel like one step forward and two back, but it can be done.
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Post by bouncy on Aug 9, 2020 15:00:30 GMT
Understood! We don't judge anyone on here, we just try to help and advise based on a person's circumstances. I had three brothers, with one extremely dominant. Every month or two, he used to get extremely aggressive towards one of his brothers, and torment him for a day or two. A raised finger usually stopped him but, if he ever inflicted a wound or left the other one worn out, I'd put him in the carry case, and place it on a stool in front of the cage so he could see the others. After a few hours, he was sullen enough to rejoin. It was my degu version of the naughty step! It's not that they'd fallen out, because he was the most attentive and hard his in his brother's last days and hours.
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Post by mschips on Aug 9, 2020 15:05:19 GMT
Thank you. I really think I should give it at least a week before I try another reunion. Is there a degu-safe plush type toy that I can buy for each of them to snuggle with in their beds in the meantime? I work at home so both will get plenty of attention from me during the day.
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