Introductions between Clover, Ivy and Daisy

[littlepaws1999]

So it’s been so long since I’m done my last introductions I have completely forgotten what a good sign that they like each other is. Clover got the all clear yesterday from the vet so I placed Ivy and Daisy which are currently in the Preuve 528 beside Clover.
Right away Daisy and Ivy made tweeting noises towards her, and clover made a few chirps too.
Clover is staying near the bars of the cage. And Ivy and Daisy are there too and chewing the bars.
I don’t see any initial aggression, but how long should I wait? Last time I think I waited 2 weeks while swapping bedding around, which my mom thinks was too long. But these girls are now 13 weeks and Clover is 5.

[deguconvert]

At least one week . . . longer if you are seeing or hearing signs of aggression. Aggression can be growling, loud shrill barking, biting the bars, reaching through the bars with their paws, turning around and lifting the bum in the direction of the degu(s) on the other side of the bars, peeing "at" the other degus, tail waggling and thumping, and of course throwing themselves at the bars or running around the cage/chasing/following the other degu(s) on the other side of the bars and being loudly vocal.

Happy things are warbling, soft chirps, laying beside each other either side of the bars, soft tooth grinding sounds, nosing through the bars WITHOUT trying to bite, looking for the other(s) to spend time near each other . . . which may mean bringing food to eat, or building nests, or sleeping.

Lots of the latter signs are very good! You can start doing some face to face for short time frames. If you can do two a day for say 2-5 minutes each, that is good. That is what I have liked to do, but twice a day is NOT a must. If you start to see stress signs (basically like the aggression signs, but would also include fluffing out the fur and sitting in a ball shape, not so interested in food or usual daily activities.) back off of the face to face . . . try once a day, or once every other day.

[littlepaws1999]

Okay thank you so much!
When you say face to face meetings for 5 mins, do you mean taking them out of the cages and placing them in neutral territory together to interact? Or moving the cages away and near each other?

And is all cage bar biting truly a bad sign? I remember Pixel would bite at the bars when we had them (Pixel, Willow and Clover) in a play pen together but still separated by a grid, but I was told at the time that it was probably him just wanting to interact with the girls and not aggression. Which when the divider was removed no aggression happened back then.

Seeing Clover sit at the side of the cage watching them makes me feel so sad. I think she really misses her sister, and hopefully having Ivy and Daisy as cage mates soon will cheer her up.

[littlepaws1999]

This was right when I put the cages together. I can't seem to link the video properly so here's a link www.flickr.com/photos/126829635@N02/50038516868/in/dateposted-public/

[deguconvert]

Yes, I do mean out of the cage and in neutral territory. Listening to the sounds the pups are making, those are very much like the noises I would hear our pups make when they were greeting their Mom. It's a happy, I'm so glad you're here . . . FEED ME NOW (well when they were still nursing that is) kind of sound. It's a good sound. You know . . . maybe it is all good to let them meet face to face. Do you feel up to it? What I saw and heard were all positive indications that would make me want to start letting them get together, if I were you.

[littlepaws1999]

I do feel up for it. I’ll try today and post how it goes.

[deguconvert]

Looking forward to hearing how it goes!!

[littlepaws1999]

Just finished up with the first meet, I think it was about 15 mins. All went very well! They all acted like life long cage mates. Mutual grooming happened and some happy tweets. Clover tilted her head/ arm for Daisy to groom. They all started tunneling under the puppy pads I had laid on the floor and my thought was if a fight were to happen that would be were it would break out, but good news it didn’t.
I ended it when Clover was getting a bit annoyed and let out some squeaks at the girls. Don’t need any grudges to be held lol. I might try again later tonight or just wait for tomorrow. I’m thinking if tomorrow’s goes well that I can deep clean the cage and place them together... or would that be too fast?

[deguconvert]

That might be a little too quick. I would recommend at least a week of good meets before thinking of that. Even a week might be fast . . . but then again, if they hit it off really well . . . it might not be too fast for them.

[winic1]

Not so sure you should deep clean the cage right before putting them together--can our introductions experts comment on this? Sometimes wiping out all scent & territory markers upsets the balance worse, as top degu especially will feel the need to exert dominance to reestablish territory.

In an established group, we don't recommend a complete or thorough deep cleaning, for the above reason. If needed, it's best to do a deep clean on only part of the cage at a time. And save some of the cleaner used substrate to scatter back across new stuff so it still smells familiar.

Can others with introduction experience comment on this?

[littlepaws1999]

Oh by deep clean I just sort of meant removing the old wooden boarders I had lined against the levels of the critter nation preventing bedding from falling out. They quite possibly could still have a faint smell of Pixel or Willow (plus theres some stained blood spots from when Pixels tail got bit), since I never changed them after their passings. I was still planning on sprinkling some old bedding on the new stuff everywhere. But making sure Clovers smell doesn’t over power anywhere to create issues.

I don’t want to rush anything at all. My thoughts are just since the ‘babies’ aren’t so much babies anymore, I’d want them to establish a good relationship before any crazy 6 month mood swings (as I like to call them) happen.

[littlepaws1999]

I feel a bit discouraged... maybe confused.... I’m not sure, I feel like the introductions are both going good but bad at the same time. Clover seems very agitated during the small meets we have. She’s always been nippy so I can tell she’s upset as she will nip my arm when I try to lift her out of the playpen when ending the meetings. Daisy seems to have the exact same personality type as Clover and I’m now worried they may clash. It also seems Daisy wants to be dominate over Clover, and I can tell Clover doesn’t like that. They noisily box each other and Daisy try’s to ride on Clovers back.
At the same time I almost feel like the small meets are doing more bad then good. Almost like if they did sort something out in the small amount of time I just reset everything by separating them again. I feel like if I were to just put them in the cage together to sort things out it might be fine. The meets don’t show me any signs to worry about. I don’t see any hair puffing, tail thumping, etc. apart from the boxing. But it is not quiet boxing which I know is the bad type. I’m not sure what I should do.... cause they all will still sit beside the cage bars and watch the other(s). Tuesday would be a week from the very first face to face meet.

[deguconvert]

Well . . . I'm not sure what to say. How long are the meets? If you feel like they need to go longer, you can always try it and change the plan according to what you see going on. There is definitely the potential for a clash, but I think that can be the case most times we are doing introductions. I think at least a full third, if not half, of the degus I have known have had a strong inner drive to reach for the dominant position. It's not quite as violent in the females as in the males, but they can still be very insistent.

Would you feel better about recording and meet and giving us a link to see what you are seeing?

[littlepaws1999]

The meets are normally about 5... maybe 10 mins. It’s also hard cause most of the time Ivy and Daisy are climbing/ jumping out from the play pen so I might have them in a little longer to make up for the time they are trying to escape.
I’ll try to grab a video next time.

[littlepaws1999]

So here’s two different behaviour videos only taken 2 mins apart.
First one : flic.kr/p/2jghreq
Clover got startled from my dog walking around the floor so I think she was too occupied focusing on her vs Daisy and Ivy. I didn’t catch it on video but seconds beforehand Daisy was riding on her back.
Second one : flic.kr/p/2jgmzup
After this the were ignoring each other and I ended it 2mins later as they were all trying to climb out. When I reached for Clover first, she came running and went onto her hind legs while jumping into my hand which she never does. It’s normally a hassle to pick her up. My mom said she looked like she wanted to be rescued out.

Here’s just a few more short clips.
flic.kr/p/2jgkL7N

flic.kr/p/2jgn2BV

[deguconvert]

I'm up way too late, so won't get detailed just now. What I do want to ask though is . . . are you sure they are only 13 weeks old? They are almost the same size as Clover. Is Clover small? What does she weigh, just out of curiosity? Maybe it would be good to know the weight of the pups as well. Not that I am worried about weight, but it can help to determine age, or even if the pups are going to be much bigger than Clover. See . . . we experienced the birth of a fair number of litters in our home, and I am quite familiar with the size of pups that are 12-13 weeks of age, and they are not that close to the size of an adult. I am wondering if the pet store might have "reduced their age" to make them more marketable. I would think they are closer to 5 months age.

There are definite signs of dominance challenges . . . but there are also signs of submission in the first video . . . the one girl is grooming/licking the side of Clover's face and mouth. Is that Ivy?

[littlepaws1999]

I got them from a breeder called Gerbilimo in Quebec. She said Ivy was born on March 12 and Daisy was born on March 14 2020. She wouldn’t allow to to get them from her any earlier than June 6th which was the exact day I got them and they were 12 weeks. I guess they are closer to almost 16 weeks now. We have a whole contract signed by the both of us, so I don’t think she would be lying about age.
Clovers a big girl for weight, she’s 298g. Ivy is 158g and Daisy is 168g. I just weighted them as I typed. In person there is still a significant size difference.

In the first video Daisy is actually the one that is licking her face (she has more white everywhere, and the thicker nose stripe). Ivy was the one laying in front of her then ran away (to climb out of the play pen lol).
Seeing both the dominant and submissive behaviour is quite confusing to me. And they do continue to tweet to each other when in the cages still.

[deguconvert]

OK . . . it must just be a trick of the camera/ angle that makes them look so big.

I think you are going to continue to see mixed behavior from them, even more so as adolescence begins. In some degus it is as early as five months of age. Most start about six months . . . and some take their time and wait until they are a year. Whatever time frame your girls will take, it can typically last up to 18 months, and in a few degus it can last up to the two year mark. If they have a mild passage through this phase, you may see a lot of boxing and chasing (which is actually pretty normal for all degus through much of their lives), hear loud exchanges of barking and tweeting. These are normal and healthy. Just like us, they will have days of joy, love, serenity, grumpies, grudges, arguments, and the occasional knock down kick boxing fight. IF they are drawing blood, you probably need to separate briefly, but if you have questions or doubts, please ask here, we are glad to help.

How often are you having face to face meets?

[littlepaws1999]

Yeah I remember Clover was the one causing issues with Pixel once she hit around 8 months. And that behaviour lasted up until he passed, with me having to separate them for a few days every couple months.
I expect theses girls might have the same issues.

I was doing twice a day for the first 3 days but then I started working. So for the past 4 days it’s only been once.

The videos show the worse of the behaviours. Nothing (Knock on wood) worse than that. I really hope no blood will have to be shed ever.
I’m not sure what I should do cage wise. I’m assuming this is just something that needs to be sorted out long term within the cage. So if I continue for about a week longer and nothing seems better should I just try them in the cage together?

Today’s meet was actually about 15 mins and the whole time they were just passing by each other and no bad dominate behaviour.

[deguconvert]

That sounds pretty good. I think continue with the 15 mins for a couple days, and then see what happens if you increase the time again? Just remember, you don't have to go the full time you've allotted, and if things are going really well, you can go longer. While there is a sense of good things happening and no tensions or stress, it's OK to let them keep being together in their meet. IF you feel or see stress signals (particularly in Clover as she is older . . . or wait . . . I may be confusing her with another forum members' degu. How old is Clover?) then yes, bring the meet to a close at whatever point. Early . . . on time . . . later.

Having them do face to face in the cage when things remain kind of unsettled can be a really difficult thing to predict. Their cage space is their territory, and they can be fiercely protective. They can also be fiercely aggressive to take on new territory. OR they might settle right in and be thrilled to be together. It's more often that we see the aggression in unsettled groups or introductions, so it is easy to lean that direction, but that doesn't mean that is what you in particular with see with your degus. We often say, you can try it and see how it will go, because the fact is some introductions give very little away as to how the degus are getting along, and until you DO try "it" (the idea you have in mind) you will not know what the outcome may be. And the fact is . . . you aren't getting strong positive or negative feedback from what you have been doing so far.

I'd say try doing the longer intros face to face for a couple more days and see how those go. Actually . . . wait . . . I do have a question. It looks like your playpen space is not very big. Do you have an area that is degu safe that you could access for intros? Somewhere that you could sit on the floor with them? If you do, I would like you to try that location, and I would like you to take their favorite treats in there with you and spend time interacting with them. All four of you, getting to know each other that way. I'd like to know how that goes. You may see more with this.