Introducing Luna and Cassa to the group - about to give up 😞

[degumummy137]

I’ve been trying all week to introduce the pups (now 11/12 weeks) to our trio, and it’s been a disaster. It wasn’t going too badly at first and got to a certain point of progress and then declined.

I think all of us need a break, so after a while we’ll start afresh. What steps would you advise? How should I go about it the second time? Or is it doomed?

[deguconvert]

Introductions can take months, depending on the degus. Which group has the more aggressive reaction to the others? Do you notice if there are two in particular that take offense? These would typically be the dominant degus . . . but not always.

Forgive me for not remembering clearly (I've had some serious sleep deprivation this week), you have them in a divided cage for the purposes of introductions?

[degumummy137]

No - we usually do divided cage but it wasn’t practical for the space we had, so they’re side by side.

There’s one from each group being defensive, but they’ve gradually stressed out the others!

[deguconvert]

Does that mean . . . side by side cages, or a barricade inside the cage? Did you do the pop hole division?

[degumummy137]

Side by side cages. The pop hole was for a cage renovation we’re about to do (and we got one! A rabbit one)

[deguconvert]

Leaving them to adjust, with no face to face intros, for a while is probably a good thing, while you also regain some peace. I would leave them side by side, but maybe part the cage by a 3-5 cm . . . that can make a big difference. If it is not enough difference, use an appropriate sized piece of cardboard and place it in the divide between the cages. That will calm them even further.

[degumummy137]

They seem satisfied now that they’re not in the same space. I just don’t know if there’s a better way of going about introductions the second time around

[moletteuk]

Tell us a bit more about what you tried and what happened.

[degumummy137]

We started with side by side cages, swapping bedding and chew toys etc. A couple of them were a bit gobby through the cage bars at first but they weren’t lunging or anything like that, and that settled down. They were like that for two weeks because Luna was unwell so we had to move slowly.

When we felt ready, we bathed them in sand with a drop of vanilla (they had two turns each, so should have picked up some of each others’ smells as well) and started bath tub intros. We started one by one on the first try, starting with our calmest, sweetest girl, then adding the other older one, and the babies were fine with both. Luna just wanted to groom and snuggle and Cassa mostly ignored them, just offering the odd sniff. We then added the final girl, who is still under a year old, and everything seemed fine at first. However, interactions were limited because they were getting increasingly stressed with being in the bathtub and trying to jump out. Then they figured out how to jump out, so we did what we’d done in the last house when we introduced Asta and moved to the bathroom floor instead. It still isn’t a very large space so we assumed they’d be okay, but Cassa became extremely defensive, especially when she found corners to hide in/objects to hide behind. We think part of it was the open space and part of it was her feeling surrounded.

So we left it for a day, then resumed in the bathtub, just with Lyra (the calmest one). Her and Luna were out straight away. We then decided to move them into a hamster cage with just some hay instead of the bathroom which hadn’t worked last time. This seemed to work much better. We did one session just them, then the next day added Kirjava. They did really well. Cassa was a little defensive but nowhere near as bad, and the adults handled it really well until we had some degu piles and grooming happening. Next day we added Asta (the teen) and even though she didn’t seem to do anything, Cassa reacted badly to her as if she didn’t trust her. She seemed more defensive than dominating. Cue three days of repeated hamster cage meetings and they gradually improved. But only in the hamster cage. We tried the small bedroom where we free roam them in their respective groups, but there were chases and fights. Returned to the hamster cage for the next one and if improved again. Then tried a cleaned, half emptied half of the large cage. They were hysterical. We tried to persevere but a couple of them started to draw blood. Asta is still a problem on and off; Lyra is still good as gold, checking in on all parties; however Kirjava, who Cassa used to trust the most, got increasingly irate with Cassa until there were chases and then a RBOF. Kirjava was strangely fine with Luna still. And every time any degu started shouting or fighting, Luna and Asta would start shouting in panic and fly at anyone who came near, so poor Lyra caught a few flying claws in the cross fire.

[deguconvert]

Yeah . . . you're going way too quickly with the introductions. Degus take a while to build trust and one week of intros is barely past the sniff stage. Have you read through this? deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide

I think that one of the mistakes you have made with your goos is trying so many different locations for the intros. You want your degus to be meeting in a place they are familiar with, but not (thank you Mole) territorial over. You want them to be comfortable, and not on the alert for enemies. It would probably have been a good thing to take them into your bathroom in their separate groups. Go in there with them and sit on the floor with treats, letting them explore and become familiar with the area. While in there, also work to build a trust bond. If you have one already, great!! It will get stronger. If that is still a work in progress, great! Keep it up! Once you see that all of them are relaxing and enjoying the space in their current groups, then it might be OK to start introducing. Again in that area, with treats, with you seated on the floor, and carefully monitoring what is going on. You may not be able to introduce ALL of them at the same time. There may be certain degus that you will have to work much more slowly with and in a one on one plan, so that they do not feel overwhelmed. Your pups will feel very vulnerable, and they are still adjusting to their new circumstances, not to mention that the health scare is still very recent. Your one year old girl will be right in the middle of the adolescent/young adult domination phase, and she may/likely will look at the pups as competition to her hierarchical standing, so may be much more aggressive with them.

Introductions are VERY SELDOM quick. There are some that go exceedingly well, but those are more the rare exception than the general rule. As I said a few posts above . . . think months, not a week. Even four weeks would be a quick introduction. There is a reason we state that time, patience, and determination are all key aspects of introducing strange degus to each other. They take a long time to get used to each other. Our patience will be severely tried. Don't let yourself give up. Giving up too soon not bring the result you want, but pushing too hard and fast will undo any good you may have accomplished. It is a SLOW game. However, if you play it well, you will most likely have a happy and settle group. If this is more than you have the patience for . . . maybe just give up the idea of having them together, and try to find a way to be content to enjoy them as they are.

[degumummy137]

I didn’t try to use multiple locations, but they wouldn’t stay in the bath tub and the bathroom was stressing Cassa out. They had daily introductions in the same place - the hamster cage - until they exhibited the behaviours that with my previous two introductions signalled they were ready for the cage. We’ve introduced a three year old to two six month olds, which took a week or two, and two nine month olds to a pup, which took a couple of days. I had no particular expectations for time but thought I was following behaviours. Problem is that they seemed to reach a really good understanding in the hamster cage but this had to start over in the cage - I just didn’t expect it to go downhill so drastically in the cage. They were worse than they’d been at any stage.

[degumummy137]

I forgot to mention that when we tried the small bedroom, it was because they had had four successful hamster cage meetings but I was nervous about putting them into a space entirely associated with only one party, so as an extra step I let them out of the hamster cage into - as you said - a free roam space they were all familiar with. However, the size of the space seemed to cause issues so I decided not to repeat this. We then had another day of successful hamster cage intros.

[degumummy137]

When we do try again, what signs would you follow to move up into the cage? We thought we had all the right behaviours going on, but clearly this wasn’t enough to transition into the cage with them! They could have three more weeks of grooming and spooning and still not accept each other in the cage ...

[degumummy137]

We did expect Asta to be most defensive over her position in the colony. We’d hoped to start introductions at seven or eight weeks but obviously Luna’s health changed this. (They’ve actually had three-four weeks side by side - I have no grasp of time right now!)

[moletteuk]

You've got a territory issue going on, plus an issue with Asta being a teenager and Cassa being fully settled in her role as dominant over Luna now, I think you have some strong personalities there. (I'm pretty sure in DC's 2nd sentence in 2nd paragraph she means they should meet in a place they are familiar with but NOT territorial over).

They are good in the hamster cage because it's so small it's not worth fighting over the territory, so to move them on from the hamster cage you need them ALL to be super comfy with each other at that stage and find a way to increase the space gradually. Do you have any other spare cages? The other thing you can do is keep the first meets in the next size up really short and stop before you have any difficulty. Perhaps a playpen that you can increase in size might help, but it would probably need to be a home made one to be non see through and non climbable so it doesn't become a distraction.

I think you've revealed a lot from what you have tried so far, so take that knowledge and use it to your advantage going forward, but readjust your expectations about the time it's going to take.

[deguconvert]

You have tried four different locations, tub, bathroom (because the degus jumped out, and it was unplanned the first time), hamster cage, and then a cleaned half of the full cage, all within a matter of days, if I understand correctly. My thoughts were that the tub, and conversely the bathroom, the hamster cage, and the half cage, would all have been unfamiliar to the pups, and perhaps to the others (with the exception of the cleaned half cage, which the others would have known intimately.) It's possible that if the pups and the others were all familiar enough to be comfortable in the bathroom location, things might have gone differently. However there is no way of knowing that now. My primary point is that they would have been inquisitive about where they are, but also hyper vigilant, because it was an unknown location with potential unknown dangers. That wouldn't put them in a calm state of mind for meeting each other.

It does sound like the hamster cage has become a good location for you to use, but with the higher tensions between them taking a step back and leaving things limited to just the interactions they will have through the bars, between their respective cages, is probably be a good thing for a week.

I like Moletteuk's suggestion of a homemade playpen that you can gradually increase in size. This could be very helpful!

I think it is important to point out that degus can have falling out's with each other in an otherwise stable group, and there can be no apparent reason for it. With the introductions you are doing right now . . . there may very well be falling out's between your three older degus. This is part of the introductions. All five will have to settle into individually accepted positions in the new hierarchy of a group of five degus instead of groups of three and two. It is harder to introduce three to two, than it is one to one, or two to one.

[degumummy137]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, the bathroom was unplanned, and we only used it the one time. The hamster cage was familiar to all five of them (the adults use it during clean outs and the babies spent quite a bit of time in it when Luna was poorly as it’s also our hospital cage).

I do have some of the interlocking cubes sold as wardrobe organisers that we used to use as a pen - I might pull those out of the shed and try the playpen idea in the spare bedroom (the one they’re all familiar with). Would you recommend returning to the hamster cage first or starting afresh with the smallest size pen?

[degumummy137]

And I’ve been watching for instability in their existing groups and they’re all completely fine so far

[moletteuk]

I would probably try the hamster cage first because you have a baseline of behaviour for that. You need to get back to them being calm in there before you can move on. But I think you need to wait a while before you do anything at the moment, they need to fully calm down and relax side by side and heal any wounds or you will continue to go backwards. I think it would be helpful to have Luna's health fully figured out before proceeding with intros too.

Perhaps line the cubes with cardboard so they are smooth and not see through so they aren't so exciting for degus.

[degumummy137]

Yes, we’re having the week off. We’ll see how they are then and decide when to proceed. Luna is doing well too; she’s over 100g now The main reason we wanted to get started was age - we hoped, rather ambitiously perhaps, that with them still being under twelve weeks they might be easier to introduce!

The cubes are pretty much solid white - you can’t see anything through them.