Introduction advice welcomed!

[haarrrllll]

I've just picked up a pair of male pups (aged 8 weeks and 9 weeks) who have lived together from a very young age, they aren't brothers but they can be considered as close as brothers. My existing degu is a very tame, friendly 9 month old male who has lived with other degus before and never shown signs of aggression. He's never even been much of boxer or a humper. 

There are no issues or reason for me to be concerned with the degus themselves, it's my setup which isn't ideal. I have the Liberta Explorer cage, which can't be split vertically. Access from the bottom half of the cage to the top half is through a hatch which I have covered with a log board, weighed down by a 2kg weight. 

After having the 2 pups for just under a week, I've cleaned the whole cage and swapped the degus around. The eldest on top, the pups below. The cage is mostly completely cleaned, but I left a few things less clean to get them all used to everyones smells (I use towels for their bedding where they sleep, and I've left the towels of the previous degus in). I'm preparing a neutral zone for everyone to meet, it'll have to be my shower enclosure in my bathroom. 


The degus know others exist, but they can't see eye to eye. The only chance for them to see each other is when I have my eldest degu in my hand and I hold him relatively close to the grates of the others. The eldest is behaving well, some teeth chattering at first, that seems to have gone now. I'm not letting him get close enough to the cage to bite any toes or tails, but close enough for everyone to see each other. 

What do I need help with?

1.        Should I just stick to the neutral territory technique? There isn't any other way for them to meet, unless I put my eldest degu in the far smaller cage (hamster cage) that I used to pick up the pups, and place that next to the cage. Only thing, that cage is so small it wouldn't have a wheel or anything for my eldest degu to do, except be interested in the pups, which isn't the objective of putting their cages together.

2.        On the one hand I want to give them as much time as possible, but on the other hand I am having to move house next month. Ideally, they will have formed a group by then, making the move so much easier. Or, I could take this slowly and rebuild the cage so they are side by side in my next house. I don't have the space for it where I currently am. 

Lastly, I do want to reiterate how everything I have seen so far leads me to believe I will be able to merge the degus. I've done it before, but never within a time frame. My adult is the best behaved I've ever had, and these pups seem very, very friendly. 

Any advice would be really appreciated! 

[savvy]

Welcome to the forum. Firstly congratulations on getting some degu company for your lone boy.

Ideally they need to be side by side for introductions but I appreciate that that isn't always possible.

You need to swap a handful of substrate between the cages so they get used to each others scent as opposed to swapping the degus themselves as this just confuses them. Also, please avoid full cage cleans as they rely on scent to ascertain their place in their pack and full cleans remove all their scent markers and effectively resets them back to zero. When their scent markers are reset, they have to fight to work out where their place is and it becomes a never ending cycle for them.

I would try to introduce in neutral territory but be ready to intervene if they start to get aggressive with each other. But please don't separate them with your hands as you may accidentally get bitten, try using a towel which can be dropped over a separated degu and then he can be removed in relative safety.

I would also check, before attempting introductions that they are all boys as mistakes in sexing are all too frequent.

Please read through out introduction section which will give you loads of advice. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17619/deguconverts-detailed-introductions-fighting-guide but please feel free to ask any questions you need to, there are no silly questions when it comes to degus.

[haarrrllll]

Hi savvy, thanks for the welcoming & the info.

Regarding cleaning, my idea of a full cage clean is remove everything, hoover up the last bits of substrate, spray it down with cleaner, wipe that, then all fresh stuff goes in after it's dried. I rarely clean the chew toys (what isn't a chew toy) so it's just the platforms that truly get clean. I kept some substrate from the little ones before they got cleaned, I'll sprinkle some into the older degu's half. Not got any of the older degus substrate so that'll have to wait.

The pups came from Urban Exotics neat Nottingham, I'm vouching on their ability to identify each sex. I've only had males. I've tried having a look but not got a clear view yet.

Actually, I came from the guide you mentioned because of this line:
"Initially you will require two cages to house the different degus you are introducing side by side, unless you have a large cage that can be divided inside and allow for safe interactions through the mesh barrier."

It's not possible in my case to have them side by side, unless it's in a much smaller cage. A mesh divider could be more harm than good because of the tiny hatch splitting them up, and one being on top of the other would leave the degu below covered in alot more wee!

I'll come back to post updates. In the past, I've just used my hands for splitting them up in neutral territory: out of 9 degus only 2 have bitten me, but I still have the scar from the last bite. I'll keep the water sprayer and towel handy this time!

[deguconvert]

Hello Haarrrllll, and welcome to the forum!!

Side by side cages is the best way to help degus become acquainted, but we also know that many things can impede the ability to accommodate that set up. You are moving into a new place in early June? So about two weeks time? I'm kind of thinking that if you can keep them as they are right now, swapping substrate if possible (You said you use towels on their surfaces rather than substrate? What if you could put a small wash cloth in each cage and then swap those small cloths to the others cage area every couple of days? That way they are getting the smell of each other to become familiar and accepting of, without feeling like their own territory has been invaded.) Then once you are moved and can separate your liberta cage into two components, and have them side by side it will be good.

WELL . . . lets just step back a bit in my thinking, as I'd like to ask some questions. You have had 9 degus over the course of your time owning degus. You are then, familiar with the adolescent/young adult stage that usually begins around the age of six months, and often lasts up to the age of 18 months, with the occasional degu still in it as long as the age of two years? With that in mind, you are prepared that there could be dominance fighting and disruptions as the pups approach the 6 months mark . . . as well as the potential that your 9 month old male, who is in the midst of that time frame, could become dominant assertive toward one or both of the pups? All of which is totally normal in the lifespan of any and all degus. I ask because introductions that have gone well with pups, is not a guarantee that all will continue to be settled and well in the months ahead, until they have passed through the turbulence of the first two years. And degus are known to throw curve balls if there is a personality conflict or grudge. I expect that you must know these, having had degus for what I assume must be a number of years now.

SO!! All that to say . . . you know your current living situation and the changes that are coming, as well as knowing your older male and having a good bond with him. You have had your pups for a week, and rather than rush into having them all introduced before the move takes place, I would recommend that you focus on building a strong bond with them as well, so that when you do begin the more focused introductions between them, you are better able to understand what they are indicating as they meet. We tend to lean toward the "slower is better" thinking here, primarily because degus seldom fall in line with human time lines and ways of thinking. If ONLY they would! LOL!

I would be interested in hearing what your experiences have been with your degus.

OH!! I would encourage you to also identify your degus sex. Here is a link that helps to clearly illuminate how to do that. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/13070/degus . I brought home two young pups to help two of my males recover from their debilitating grief after the death of their alpha male in the group. I went to an all male store, where the pups had all been vet certified as male. Just over 90 days later the two male pups we brought home gave birth to litters of 6 pups each. I had never personally seen female degu genitalia before then, and I had looked at the bottoms of dozens of the pups in store before bringing those two home, so I was not confident that I was right in my doubts. AND having talked to three clerks and then the manager, and all of them assuring me that they were vet certified as male . . . I was convinced that I was inept and wrong to doubt them. I didn't make that mistake again. LOL!

[bouncy]

As a random suggestion, have you tried have a face to face in a neutral space like the bathtub? Your pups are young enough that they may just be adopted by your existing goo?

[deguconvert]

That is also worth a try!!

[haarrrllll]

Thanks for all the advice deguconvert & bouncy!

Regarding the towels I use, this is only for their sleeping nests. A house in the bottom half, a hammock in the top. I left those untouched and uncleaned when I swapped the degus around top to bottom. Well, I did shake the poops out, but just that.

The vast majority of degus I have had have been older rescues, so researched the whole stroppy teenager stage a few weeks ago. I presume my eldest degu is in that now, acting alot more mardy towards me as I'll explain in a sec. Just for some background info, I've had 3 deaths and given a trio of degus away to a colleague of mine.

My plan has changed because of the comments here, general advice and also my own experience. I'll leave them seperate until I move house.

Yesterday, I was planning on introducing them in my shower enclosure (I used to use a bathtub for this, but I've only got a shower enclosure now). I was going to close the en-suite door and let them meet in the shower with me outside of it with the shower door open. They could probably get over the shower tray side, but it's a small en-suite anyway.

However, I swapped some substrate from top to bottom yesterday and saw a change in my eldest degu. The younger degus suddenly become alot faster, but not necessarily afraid. I gave everyone some food pellets, which the pups came onto my hand as usual for, without much bickering.

Unfortunately, my eldest degu was very agitated and gave me a tiny little nibble, as a bit of a warning. He wouldn't let me stroke him as I usually do when he eats, which is my fault to be honest. I should have left him to it as he ate. After about 5 minutes, we made up again and he happily sat in my hand getting stroked as he ate some rolled oats. I should not have changed as much substrate as I did (quite a handful) and I should have left him to it. A degu bite is very good for teaching lessons.

After seeing him chatter his teeth at me and give me a cautionary bite, I've postponed the neutral territory meeting. It might be today, who knows. I'll swap over some more substrate and see how he reacts.

But in some FANTASTIC news, I let my pups out in my room for the first time. It's about 95% degu-proof, I just need to re-do some cables which are reachable. They behaved so well! With all the degus I have had over the years, I've never had such a stressfree experience letting them out! For store-bought degus, they are very tame and really happy to come onto my hand, even though their previous carers were all girls. I couldn't be happier with how they behaved out of the cage!

[bouncy]

My youngest two were incredibly friendly and cuddly when I first got them (although they went straight in with the older two). As they've gotten older, they've become more reluctant, but will still tolerate if caught.

[haarrrllll]

They went straight in with the older two?!? Straight in straight in or quicker than a usual introduction?

[bouncy]

Straight in. In the wild, adults in a group will share parenting duties, even if they're not their own.

When I took on 12 week old Sausagegoo and Smasheygoo, Squidgygoo came with me. We put them together, and all was good, so they came home in the same carrier.

When I took Snoozygoo and Sneakygoo, they were five weeks old. Sausage and Smashey (Spud) came on a road trip to Liverpool. Their hooman had the pups running in a pen, so I added my two. The pups ran over to play, and this was the scene two minutes later. Again, they went home in the same carrier.



It doesn't always work, which is why Squidgygoo needed friends, but it takes advantage of the natural way of things. You have to be confident they're under 12-14 weeks.

[haarrrllll]

That sounds too good to be true! But the proof is in the picture.

I am 100% confident my smaller pup is under 8 weeks old or just under. The other pup was born on the 10th of March, making him 10 weeks and 3 days.

I've introduced the twice, both times in my en-suite. They jumped straight out of shower enclosure, obviously. The first meeting yesterday went well, no fur balls of death, but bickering between my eldest degu and the eldest pup. The youngest pup was only interested in hiding behind me.

This morning, I introduced them again, more good progress. The younger pup was a little bit less scared, but still hiding behind me. The usual mounting and bum sniffing from my eldest on the eldest pup.

All is going very well. Since I have no way of letting them see face to face from their homes, I quite often hold my eldest degu in front of the pup's part of the cage on my hand. They can't reach each other, but I can listen to what noises they are making. Just now, I held my youngest pup up to the eldest degu's part of the cage, and there was no chattering from my eldest degu which I am really pleased with.

I think they could be ready to be put into the same cage soon!

[bouncy]

Excellent! It sounds like your goo has recognised they're pups and is happy to do his duty! There will always be bum sniffing and mounting. I remember Sneakygoo first doing it. He climbed onto the back of Spud, but none of his paws could touch the floor.

[haarrrllll]

Just wanted to give a bit of an update - after picking them up on the 14th of this month, I've finally taken the leap and left my eldest in with the 2 pups......

A seriously nervewracking experience!!!!

This was after letting them meet in neutral territory twice, swapping their positions top to bottom once, and transferring their substrate 3 times.

So, the moment of truth... I took my eldest out of his top floor apartment and put him in with the pups. Everybody had some ryvita bread - I gave the pups 2 much smaller pieces and the eldest a much bigger piece. I wanted my eldest to have plenty to eat and the 2 pups to have finished before the eldest.

To begin with, there was a bit of bickering, but my eldest just needed to find a comfy spot to eat.

Then, when everyone was finished their food, all hell broke loose!!! Fighting, mounting, running.... You really have to hold your nerve and not open the cage. If I would have seen any blood or any serious fighting, I would have intervened. But no, it took around 15 minutes before my eldest degu was grooming the eldest pup. That was fantastic to see!!!!

As of now, they've been together for around an hour in the unclean part of the cage that the pups were in. They have all tried (unsuccessfully) to run together on the wheel, they have all been nibbling on the chew toy together (with a bit of bickering) and I've seen my eldest degu clean himself with the sand the pups have used for a while.

Occasionally, there are very loud squeaks. This is usually over an item, like the chew toy or the wheel, when somebody gets booted off it or wants to have it all to themselves. They aren't being vicious towards each other, more like angry that they have to share.

Later on this evening, when I am hearing less arguing, I will open up the top part so they explore both levels. I won't let them out of the cage tonight, they'll just have to get used to each other in their new, bigger homes.

One important thing to keep an eye out for - if they have been biting each other hard, it is not always obviously from the squeaks or from any visible blood. Check their mouthes - they won't have blood around there and fur too. I've seen none of that, even though the fighting does persist. The fighting now is between my eldest and the eldest pup - this is for dominance. My eldest degu has never been the alpha male with past degus, and the eldest pup and always been the biggest degu whilst I've looked after him.

There are a few steps left - sharing the whole cage, the first sleep together, being fed, being let out together - and of course, who comes out as the top degu.

So far so good! They'll be staying together for the first time tonight!

[bouncy]

Excellent news! When Squidgygoo met Sausage and Spud, the lady at the rescue and I were poised to pounce, but had no need to. When the latter two met the tiny pups, we were equally ready, but the pups ran straight over and they were all happy squeaks.

Watch out for the dominance fighting. They're all in a confined space right now, which may make them feel cramped, and this could start off territorial fighting by itself.