Vitamin D Dosing help?

[hpdegus]

Hi all! I need some help figuring out vitamin D dosing and administration.

I just purchased these drops (https://www.amazon.com/Carlson-Babys-Super-Daily-Liquid/dp/B006J23VO0) which are 400 IU/drop.

The goos are on sunseed vita prima degu (2,200 IU/kg), however I buy these in bulk since I run out so quickly. *side question, does vitamin D expire in pellets?

I'm trying to feed 50% pellets, however I'm not sure how much Ollie is cooperating with that since I don't weigh out pellets, but free feed and give forage and seeds in addition.

Thoughts on how many drops I should be putting in the rescues' water bottle (237 mL/8 fl oz)? *stupid question but my brain isnt working quite yet--would I add more drops ever time I refill the water bottle (which is every day)?*

Would it be better to just dilute and add only to a favorite treat of Ollie's once or twice a week?

Sorry for all the questions, I just know that excess vitamin D can cause issues, so I dont want to screw this up!

[bouncy]

There is little known about dosing for degus. I've worked out my dose based on experiment. I do appreciate, though, that different goos munch at different rates!

I chatted to my vet about dose and he said, as long as I avoid signs of OD, I could use my judgement. I started off putting two drops into a similarly sized bottle to yours, and gradually increased. I'm now up to four drops, and there's nothing to suggest I shouldn't increase, but I've stopped at four.

OD signs are similar to diabetes, as well as calcification and spurs around joints.

[hpdegus]

That's good to know! I've been trying to find additional info, but this forum is what pops up the most!

You feed 100% natural, correct? If so, I may start off with just one drop then. I don't know if that will do anything, but it hopefully won't hurt either. I've contacted the degu food producers to see if they know whether the vitamin D degrades over time in their pellets. If so, I'll probably have to bump up the number of drops.

I'll just plan on adding that every time I refill the water bottle. Do you need to shake it will to insure mixing?

Perfect, I'll keep an eye out for increased diabetic symptoms, as well as difficulty moving!

[bouncy]

Yes, I feed 100% natural. I usually put the drops in, then fill the bottle (v high water pressure here). The delinquents go through a bottle every 2-3 days, but they've always been heavy drinkers.

[moletteuk]

I'll have a look tomorrow, my brain is not working today! I used to dose direct on a treat, rather than in water, I worry that the vitamin d is in oil and would float or not be distributed evenly in the water, but it must work if bouncy does it that way.

[hpdegus]

Awesome, thanks to you both!

I was a bit worried about that as well, Molette. But your results have me convinced, Bouncy! I was really impressed by how well your experiment has been working.

[moletteuk]

OK, dosing recap, so various sources put the required dose somewhere from 10 to 25IU per degu per day. If I assume your degus eat around 5g each of Sunseed at 2200IU/kg that would be 2200/100x5 = 11 IU per degu per day.

It's up to you what dose you would like to aim for. Your drops are quite strong at 400 IU per drop, one drop every 40 days is 10 IU per day, so that is the ball park you would be aiming for, but I'd be more comfortable if you could dilute the dose so you could do a quarter of a drop every 10 days. I think putting single drops on courgette and then cutting them in half when dry would be feasible, but probably not quarters.

If you put 1 drop in a 375ml bottle and assume each degu drinks 20ml per day, that would be 400/375x20 = 21 IU per degu per day, not allowing for floating of oil. Obviously I have guessed bottle size and amount drunk per day.

The vitamin quantities in commercial foods is a good question, as far as I know the quantities are a bit of a crapshoot, I think they generally put more in than they say so that at the expiry date they still have the stated amounts of the vitamins. The vitamins do fade with time but I don't know whether the rate differs between water soluble and oil soluble or is just down to each vitamin.

[deguconvert]

I'm crap at maths so am going to ask . . . if you put one drop of the D3 solution into 40 drops of distilled water, and were to shake it well every day, then put one drop on a tasty thing . . . would you then get more of the right dosage?

[hpdegus]

Thank you so much for the dosing math Molette! For some reason my brain just blanks on this kind of thing.

I really do like the idea of putting it on a treat, especially if I could do something like what DC is suggesting. I want to be consistent and try not to overload his system with vitamin D, so either in water or diluted on a treat daily would be ideal.

I'll let you know if I hear back from the company about the degradation--probably won't be for a while though with everything going on.

I wish I could go back into the lab I work at--the pipettes would be helpful with dispensing such small amounts of liquid!

[bouncy]

The only reason I put it in water is because it's derived from coconut, and my lot absolutely despise anything coconut. I gave them one for Christmas one year. They initially had a wee on it, then actually circled away around it until I took it out. They even stay away from the long since empty shell on the kitchen floor. They can't smell it in the water

I'm not saying it's perfect, but it gets the job done! 

[hpdegus]

Hahahaha, goos man! Once they decide something is evil, they stick with it! Fred and George were terrified of carrots. I tried to give them part of one and they backed away just shrieking!

I'll be ready for Ollie to turn his nose up at a vitamin D'd treat. Whatever works with these guys!

[moletteuk]

That might explain why my lot had no interest in chewing coconut shells when they would chew everything else. Absolutely bouncy, it's never one size fits all with goos, it's your success that brought us to encouraging others to try supplementing vit d

I think if you wanted to dilute it before dispensing then you would need to dilute with whatever oil it is in the bottle already.

[hpdegus]

Vitamin D arrived today! I've decided to try putting it on a treat first, then when Ollie rejects it I'll put it in the water bottle

Just as a double check-- each drop is 28uL. Since one drop every 40 days is what I'm shooting for, I added 28uL of vitamin D solution to 1092uL(39x28) of water. Shook that very well (oil appeared to be relatively well dispersed and dispensed 28uL on a rice puff. This should give 10IU of vitamin D per rice puff. This seems reasonable?

Also. So glad I was able to find a 500uL syringe! I really should grab more of those when I get back to lab!

[hpdegus]

Ollie ate his dosed rice puff with minimal fuss. He took it, had a small bite and said absolutely not! But when I picked him up for an eye exam, he grumpily ate it! We'll see how long the reluctant compliance lasts!

[moletteuk]

Good, yes, that sounds reasonable. If it's hassle or problematic getting him to take it, it might be worth just diluting to a weekly or twice weekly dose.

[moletteuk]

hpdegus

I was just looking at the right drops for dl21 and realised that the dose on the bottle is not usually the dose per drop, and in fact every brand seems to be different in how many drops make up the dose. Can you check your bottle to find out the dose per drop?

[hpdegus]

So this does seem to be 400 IU per drop! I'm including a pic just in case I'm reading this incorrectly.

photos.app.goo.gl/jEvCocVbNy2a72kA8

[moletteuk]

Yes, that looks right. Bit of a shame really, it would have helped you out if it was 6 drops or something for one dose! Massive note to self for me though that every make is different

[hpdegus]

That would have been perfect! Oh well, a reason for me to consider switching when this bottle runs out. I never would have thought of that if you hadn't mentioned it!

[hpdegus]

Ollie is no longer reluctant to take the vitamin D on rice puffs! I just need to make sure they're completely dried out. It's nice not to have to fight him on this