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Post by moletteuk on Aug 14, 2019 10:44:47 GMT
Cross post there.
Wait for them all to get more calm if possible. Normally we recommend introducing everyone at once but you will need extra pairs of human eyes and hands to watch 5 degus carefully enough for an intro. Bath tub usually works quite well.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 14, 2019 11:57:28 GMT
When are degus fully grown??
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 14, 2019 11:59:16 GMT
I’m heading out soon - I’ll respond to the new messages when I get back. More school uniform shopping, the girls go back to school tomorrow!
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 14, 2019 18:01:03 GMT
A year of age is considered adult . . . but the hormonal/dominance issues often continue beyond age one to the 18 months mark. It's more like the adolescent/young adult age. They need to turn the equivalent to the human age 25 for their brains to start to have the calmer turn. Is this the cage you have? encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6pDoVUn6DbmhbayHF-r_adYQDuiy75UaGR9ucqrkanq9st1FHnkBfWCB5_LUWCQ&usqp=CAcThe dimensions don't seem to be quite the same as those you have given. If your cage is about 59 inches X 20 inches, with the two levels, you have a total surface space of 2360 sq inches. Not including all the perches you have placed. Adding the third level as you have described would bring you right up to the minimum we recommend for 5 degus. I agree with Moletteuk, that third level needs to be a priority.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 20, 2019 7:35:03 GMT
Sorry, I didn’t notice your reply - no, that isn’t my cage. So, update. This morning I woke up, and as soon as I could see straight, I did what I do every morning. Degu head count, make sure all the furry heartbeats are happy and their needs are met. This morning, I counted 3 heads in the isolation tank. Roo had managed to chew the edge of the doorway just enough to lift the rodent mesh. 🙈 And her, Honey and Mia (the baby, who was already in the isolation area with Honey to keep her company) were all cuddled up on one of the hammocks. There doesn’t seem to be any serious fighting. Definitely arguments, but no rolling/locked together sort of fighting. Roo has been pretty religiously hanging out next to the rodent mesh before today, just talking through it and sleeping there. The lot of them really don’t like being separated So, I left Roo for a bit - but have temporarily sorted the mesh issue with a brick, placed in front of the area they could lift. Roo has now been put back in the other part of the cage. I don’t know what to do - should I try reintroducing them again? Can someone tell me exactly how to proceed? They seemed well enough this morning, only minor scrabbles, but I honestly don’t want anyone hurt. And frankly I’m feeling a bit of trepidation after seeing their original fights - degus don’t play around lol. I’m assuming they’ve spent at least several hours in the isolation tank together by the time I woke up. Thank you x
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Post by misscatafer on Aug 20, 2019 10:10:54 GMT
I personally would have left them all together and monitored their interactions today (if you are available to do so) if there were no signs of fighting overnight - this was a positive sign! I say this from personal experience of having a split cage where both groups chewed through to eachother, and it was several hours (maybe a whole day or two!) til we returned and found absolute carnage - we nearly lost our dear Boo so the fact all degus are uninjured and snuggling is a good sign! You definitely need to reassess the cage if they are able to chew through areas... Degus are clever and once they figure something out they will remember - you don't want them chewing their way out of the cage now they have found a weak spot.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 20, 2019 11:08:34 GMT
Luckily it’s an internal wall, so much thinner in construction than the main body of the cage. I’m going to get a bigger piece of rodent mesh (the last one was a4 and only a tiny bit bigger than the opening into the isolation room). They really only had to chew the edge of the doorway a bit to be able to lift the mesh. I’m out for half the day today, but I may take them down to the bathroom and see if one of the 2 brawlers have decided to cave and be sub. I have all afternoon and evening to keep an ear out on them. If they do okay then, should I leave them overnight together or should I split them simply for safety at nights for a few days? Or will that mess with the pecking order all over again? Thank you for your help - having that experience with your degus mustve shocked the life out of you I hope they all came out the other side okay??
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 20, 2019 11:13:19 GMT
I think you could have left them a bit longer but equally it is good to end meets early before any aggro escalates.
I think you could allow them to meet in the cage again later today or tomorrow or whenever is convenient, or you could have them meet in a neutral area or just part of the cage so that you can intervene quickly if you need to. You might want to wait until everyone seems calm again before you try again. Sorry I can't be more exact, it's not really an exact science.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 20, 2019 14:21:48 GMT
I think you could have left them a bit longer but equally it is good to end meets early before any aggro escalates. I think you could allow them to meet in the cage again later today or tomorrow or whenever is convenient, or you could have them meet in a neutral area or just part of the cage so that you can intervene quickly if you need to. You might want to wait until everyone seems calm again before you try again. Sorry I can't be more exact, it's not really an exact science. You’re probably right, but I sorta panicked and couldn’t sit there staring at them much longer as I had to get my ‘cherubs’ ready for school lol. I’m only out and about because I’m foraging for them. I’m actually finding them amazingly good for my mental health - I’ve been on a near 2 year autistic burnout and had hardly left the house at all unless it was to get food. Now, I’m leaving nearly every day. Barring the fights between Roo and Honey, these degus have been the best thing i could’ve done for myself. I think I’ll take just Roo and Honey to the tub in a bit and try them that way - I already know they are fine with rest of their sisters, barring squabbles of course. If they’re okay I’ll put them in the cage together until tonight. I’ll separate them tonight because I doubt I’d sleep for worry otherwise and I struggle to sleep as it is lol. Thank you for the help!
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 20, 2019 16:45:13 GMT
That sounds like a good plan. We try to help you figure out what to do, rather than tell you exactly what to do because of the personal circumstance things like getting the kids ready for school, and there's usually quite a bit of personal preference involved too.
I'm really chuffed you are getting so much out of the foraging. I only knew a handful of wildflowers when I started foraging for my goos 8 or 9 years ago, I found it a really good way to learn, each time I went out I would pick a couple of new things to look up and also spot a couple of things to check out for next time. The worst bit was accepting when my goos wouldn't touch something that everyone else said they should love. I ended up doing a wildflower and fungi nightclass which was great for forcing me to learn the botanical terms and how to use keys,and I've been away since then, loving every minute, I go out with the county botanical club and have met people and made some friends, which is kind of amazing for me.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 20, 2019 17:06:36 GMT
This for me seems to feel like I’m finally getting back to a good place. Several years ago I used to forage all the time, although mostly for plants/mushrooms for us lol. I took a smallholding course, self sufficiency has always been a special interest of mine. Bad things happened and I sort of lost the will to do it. Then worse bad things happened + my routine being upheaved completely a few times + a few house moves... and that was it, me done. Burnout from hell. It feels like it may finally be over.
I completely understand the making friends thing. I don’t know about you but I’m as awkward as they and my social skills are lacking. I don’t make friends easily lol. The girls are getting older now, my youngest are nearly 10 😮, I might see at some stage if I can try to go along to a course or 2 like you did. I have a lot of really bad memories associated with foraging and courses, and it would be nice to get past that. I was looking at a mushroom guide - I LOVE identifying mushrooms, but it’s a bit of a dangerous business you know? I would love to go on a guided walk and learn. I did find some pretty amazing chanterelles the other day while foraging for the degus! I snatched them all up and even though I knew what they were I still sent pics of gills/cap/stem to an expert to make sure lol. Then we ate them 😁. There was so much I’ve got chanterelles in my freezer now.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 20, 2019 23:38:46 GMT
Well. That was a royal flop 😔
I took them down to the tub and all seemed to be going well. Until it wasn’t. Seriously, in the space of a second there was blood and it happened so fast that I don’t even know how started what. I don’t know what I’m doing wrong?! They seemed absolutely fine this morning in the cage? Now that I think about it, both bigger fights have happened in the tub. Is there something wrong with the tub?! I put a towel down, it’s neutral, no smells. They were doing fine. Then out of nowhere 😢
One has a wound on her neck, the other on her chin. They were going for throats. And idiot me decided to give the baby time with her sisters while I was doing reintroductions... I’m such an idiot. So I have a 3rd degu with an injured paw.
These 2 lots are going to need permanently separated aren’t they?
At the very least, I don’t think I can attempt reintroductions for a long while. Next time it may end in a dead degu.
So now, it’s all effort into getting the new cage built ASAP. Split the cage straight in half, 2 levels each lot but make it so it can be made into one cage. I’m gong to expand the isolation tank tomorrow, which is going to suck for the 3 sisters - but the 2 in the isotank need more room until I can get this new cage up.
I’m open to any and all suggestions. Can you see anything I’m doing wrong? Is there any hope for them? When they are in the cage, Roo and Honey talk to each other through the mesh. They don’t fight or anything. Am I misreading it? I just don’t get it.
I’m on degu health watch now. Watching for signs of infection, warmth swelling, going off their food or water. Good thing I weighed them today. I bathed their wounds in cooled boiled salt water. If they need seen tomorrow, I’ll take them in. Seriously, any hints or clues?!
Thanks for the help x
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Post by winic1 on Aug 20, 2019 23:57:08 GMT
Maybe without the scent cues of their home, the bathtub throws them off? There's no clear signal of whose turf it is, no territory markings of the top goo, and so they fight because they are stressed and confused by the lack of hierarchy markings?
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Post by hpdegus on Aug 20, 2019 23:57:08 GMT
I'm really sorry it didn't go as planned! But could the lack of smell actually be causing the issue? Maybe (if you do decide to try again) you could instead take substrate from both groups, mix it up really well, then put it down in the tub, or wherever you decide to hold intros.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 21, 2019 9:22:30 GMT
I'm sorry it went so wrong so fast. I think you already figured it out, I think it's the tub. In many cases it neutralises the territory issue, but in your case it seems to be making boths sides think the others are unknown invaders, it can happen. Intros are very often trial and error.
Don't lose hope, they can react really differently when you remove the scent cues. I think if you give it some time they should get back to chattering through the mesh. Your plan to get everyone comfortable with enough space and a same level meeting place sounds like the best way forward. It might be worth blocking off the the divider with something solid today to get them calm as soon as possible.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 21, 2019 9:29:41 GMT
It could be the lack of smell. They are complex little creatures aren’t they?! Given that the degus need to heal, I won’t be attempting it any time soon, frankly I’m more than a little scared lol. It’ll take me time to gain the guts to try again. What I will do is start switching substrate around as suggested - although they literally lay next to each other on either side of the mesh, so I’m sure they have each other’s scent. Hopefully that’ll help by making each degu ‘present’ on the other side of the cage. I’ll keep up with that for the next few weeks or until I try reintroductions again. Mainly, I’m going to work on the cage issue now and deal with reintroductions AFTER I get that sorted. It was a priority before, but now it’s an emergency. I’m going to have to consider other options than getting a hutch built, which kind of sucks for my house, but needs must. I can always revisit the idea of a custom cage later. I’m having issues any ways finding a carpenter that will even give me a quote right now, it’ll take time to find one and then get them to build the cage...given the size of the isotank, it needs sorted and soon. The degus (autocorrected to ‘devils’, how fitting 😂) seem to be doing okay this morning. I was a bit worried about Roo when she hid her treat, but as soon as I offered her a different treat, she ate it immediately. Her wee mouth must be sore but it’s looking much better this morning. The others are similar, they all had their treat, came up and greeted me and seemed to be doing fine. I will keep a close eye though, I have one with a scab near her neck, another with one on her lip, and yet another that is somewhat favouring her paw 😬. You guys weren’t kidding when I’ve read how difficult it is to medically tend to degus! I had them wrapped up like burritos and they still managed to squirm away, I was scared to hold them any tighter! I will be investing in leather gloves or something also, it was a close call with my figures a few times there lol
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 21, 2019 10:05:00 GMT
Glad they seem OK, they usually deal quite well with injuries, just watch out for heat, swelling, redness. Little monsters trying to bite you though!!
Given what we learned yesterday, I do want to mention that I think extending the space they currently have so they can stay in the familiar space with all the right scent cues might have an advantage in getting them back together.
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 21, 2019 10:44:59 GMT
Can I just mix their old substrate together and then move it when I move them into new cages? I’m hoping to have my room completely rearranged and the cages set up within 7-10 days. I will also be extending the tank to take up the entire top level rather than what is now while they wait for their cage to be set up. I need to make this move as seamless as possible, I really don’t want anymore fighting in the groups, luckily the cozy pet cage seems easy to split...but I really don’t want to. I’m gutted that they are split into 2 groups now, it would break my heart to see them even more fractures. I miss the huge piles of sleeping fluff
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nika
Foraging Degu
Posts: 106
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Post by nika on Aug 21, 2019 10:48:12 GMT
I don’t blame Roo and Honey for trying to bite me, it must’ve been sore me poking at their wounds, and had they gotten me, I would’ve understood. Leather gloves or maybe metal mesh gloves (?!) are a must though lol.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 21, 2019 18:41:37 GMT
Yes, you can put old substrate in, which will certainly help.
Oh, that's fair enough if you were poking sore bits, that's the only time I was ever properly bitten. You need leather gloves thick enough to resist a bite but not so thick you can't feel what you are doing, look for 'cut proof' gloves, although they will be on the thicker side.
Going back to chat. Yes, it's been a bit weird and nerve wracking meeting people and starting to make friends. I'm a bit non standard, no kids, home most of the time, no regular holidays, interested in sciency stuff. I'm rubbish at small talk and have a very dry and kinda ruthless sense of humour, so the first part of getting to know people is difficult.
I go out with an informal fungi group in the autumn. Learning fungi is impossible compared to plants. I have a key that gets me to which major group the fungi is in, but after that it's a guessing game looking at pictures, reading descriptions. I can never remember which sample was under which tree. It's a good job I'm not into foraging to eat because I'd have been dead by now.
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