seed
Newborn Degu
Posts: 4
|
Post by seed on Mar 31, 2019 14:08:51 GMT
Hi, this is my first post after lurking around this forum for ages. I've Found lots of helpful information here so i was wondering if anyone could shed some light on this. Long post incoming: My girlfriend and i adopted some degus last February after researching and learning about their needs/requirements. We found somebody that had recently changed jobs and couldn't give them the attention they need. Enter Fudge and
Toffee 
Everything went fine for around a month until some serious fighting broke out(fbod). We broke up the fight and kept an eye on them but it happened twice again so they got split up. No injuries thankfully!
From what we had read we put it down to a combination of cleaning the cage a little too zealously and the stress of a new place. There was a brief separation, a little of what seemed like hierarchy/dominance issues but we successfully got them re-introduced and we were back to happy days. (It's also worth noting that after learning about them over the course of the year i think the cage the guy gave us was a tad unsuitable. It's aventura/liberta dimensions but only has one full floor, with two half-floor shelves. We did our best using what we had to make the half-floors into another full floor and added as many hammocks/ledge platforms as physically possible to try and compensate. It was borderline at best and probably contributed to the fighting, but they got on okay after we improved it until we got them a new cage.)
Sadly we lost Toffee in October '18. Not really sure what happened tbh, My girlfriend called me as she got home from work, very distraught as he was not doing too well. Seemed like he was in a daze, mostly just laying on his side, unsteady on one side of his body. He couldn't see very well and had physical difficulty navigating himself  we took him off to the vets and got some anti-inflammatory and antibiotic medications and took him home. She self admittedly wasn't a degu specialist but had treated a few before, although she couldn't diagnose anything for certain. Toffee made it through the night after lots of cuddles but sadly passed away the next afternoon.
Oh no. We have a lone degu.
Fudge, being a dom of epic standards wasn't super interested in his brother in life(affirming his dominance aside), and honestly he didn't seem particularly bothered after the fact. We looked and looked for a pair of new brothers for him but we were looking at travelling 200 miles + as the closest option, which wasn't really possible. We got fudge as many toys as we could and started spending a lot of time with him (like, all the/any time we were in the flat.) Even though he seemed okay we still searched for some new brothers as it's really honestly just sad seeing a lone boy. Almost 6 months later, we finally found some younger boys (1.5y vs Fudge's 3y) and made arrangements to travel down and get them.
In the past two weeks, Fudge has developed some strange/obsessive behaviors and i'm wondering if this is finally signs of depression/loneliness kicking in, or if he's just being a weirdo. He's started bar chewing pretty relentlessly, spending at-least half of his day chewing and pinging bars. He's also obsessed with the front of the cage, tearing up the hemp mats and moving all loose bedding to the back of the cage. He obsessively digs on the bare metal shelves/floors when
there's no bedding on them. When i try and take him out, he will come out and then immediately go back into the cage and start scratching on the metal again. He gets pretty irate, and will demand to come out and in as long as you'll sit
there and let him. He'll even start trying to dig on my hands.
Fortunately, we picked up our two new boys Roland & Gizmo on Friday. They are in a cage themselves, separate from Fudge as we're gonna take introductions slow. Fudge is a good bit bigger than them and generally the aggressor in our
experience so we're prepared for this to be a total nightmare. Regardless, we figured they should probably settle in here before we go sticking other degus in their face, so it'll be a week or two before we try a first meeting. However i'd
made the assumption that Fudge's behavior would change having two new boys to speak to. His odd compulsions persist, and at first he was entirely uninterested in his new brothers. That maybe wasn't much of a surprise actually. We have
heard him talking to them so i'm sure he'll develop more interest. It's only been a couple of days.
Is Fudge a weirdo? Is he still lonely? Was he lonely in the first place? and mostly, does his behavior sound particularly concerning? I'm thinking that in the coming weeks things might change but also just want to keep an eye out for any signs of anything more serious.
|
|
|
|
Post by savvy on Mar 31, 2019 15:56:35 GMT
Welcome to the forum, it's nice to meet a lurker, lol.
Firstly, please check that they are all male, I went through a loss in December (Bumblebee), got Reggie a few days later for my lone boy Dixie, and experienced similar behaviour. Then found out that Reggie was really Regina! It is possible that if you have a girl(s) in the mix, hormones are kicking in.
Fudge could also be feeling a little insecure following the loss of his friend, especially after all the changes of house moves, new humans, cage changes, disappearance of Toffee etc. Degus really do hate change so it's a lot for him to go through and they can be slow to adapt.
Is he eating, drinking, peeing and pooing as normal? Are you keeping track of his weight?
|
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Mar 31, 2019 16:46:37 GMT
Welcome So, did the digging and obsessive stuff start out of the blue one day? Were there any clues what triggered it? Could he be trying to make another exit for the cage? Or get below the cage, or something like that? Did anything change around the time it started? Even something like the sunlight arriving on the cage? Could you have mice? (I'm just throwing stuff out there!) I think it's not really 'normal' but it's not all that unusual either. I suppose really dominant degus or highly strung degus or lonely degus are more likely to get a bit obsessed like this. Quite often there is some kind of logical purpose to it at least in the beginning so it's worth trying to think like a degu and see if you can come up with anything that you could fix for him. However, I think once they get obsessed about something it can take over them so that it becomes more of a habit than about the original trigger. Also, it can be partly about attention, so maybe he has a purpose to his digging but he also wants your company while he digs. I don't know, often these things remain a mystery. Anyway, offering him some company is great and once the intros progress they may occupy him a bit more than the digging. Him ignoring Roland and Gizmo is potentially a good sign for the intro, at least he's not obsessing about them, which is never a good sign! |
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Mar 31, 2019 19:12:48 GMT
Hello Seed, and welcome to the "present and accounted for" part of the forum!  It does sound like he is feeling somewhat distressed. May I ask you some questions? Where in your home is his cage located? How much natural light does he get in his cage? Do you have lighting inside the cage for him? Do you use UV lighting? Interested in your answers to Moletteuk's questions about when this behavior started and if you noticed anything going on at the time that could have triggered it? (Anything new in your neighborhood that could generate new sounds, smells, or vibrations?) Where is his cage in relation to the two new degus cage? How close are they? And for Roland and Gizmo . . . have you been spending any time bonding with them, or is it still very early days and you are letting them settle in? |
|
|
|
Post by zenaida on Mar 31, 2019 21:13:03 GMT
Others much more experienced than I have already answered, but just to add:
We currently have 3 degus and one of them, Frida, frequently behaves like you describe. Since we got her she's been "high-strung". She has a certain area near the wheels that she insists upon keeping fully clear. And she even will dig at those areas obsessively when they are clear. She's also the one who "talks back" to us constantly if we're doing anything with her or near her (including treats). Basically it's like "I'm warning you!" as she begrudgingly accepts a treat. For us, because she's the only one who does this and we have even observed her sisters go to her to "calm her down" and she often "won't listen to them" (seriously, it is a weird, but very clear exchange), we've come to the conclusion that it is just part of her personality. She's high strung and we're just trying to make her as comfortable as we can. In Frida's case, her obsessive digging is definitely stress related (I've watched her take offense to something and immediately go "dig it out"), however at this point we can't save her from every stress all the time (seriously, they wouldn't get fed because opening the door stresses her). So it can be a balance. We have comfort that "it's just her personality" because we have two others that don't exhibit these levels of stress.
It is possible that this is happening in your case, but it is important to rule out everything else first. With all the changes, lack of cage mate, and the fact that the behavior wasn't present before, it is really important to look at all the environmental factors. You'll want to give it more time, hopefully get him introduced, and let all the emotions settle before you know for sure. But for now, thinking critically about if Fudge is stressed and what might be causing is a good thing. The questions previously posed can help dig into subtle causes of stress.
|
|
|
|
Post by misscatafer on Mar 31, 2019 21:20:10 GMT
Welcome, thank you for sharing your story with us I am sorry for your loss but it's good to hear you have taken the necessary steps to make sure Fudge has company. To me it sounds like a combination of boredom and feeling quite insecure (based on the clearing of bedding and going to the back of the cage) - both which are most probably symptoms of loneliness. Introductions are hard and can seem daunting, but we are here with you while you go through this process so please ask questions. Take things slow and be aware that your new pair are just coming out of adolescence, and do double check the sex! Fudge has neighbours now which should alleviate how he is feeling and improve his mood and behaviour.. Don't rush to get them together. You sound clued up and knowledgeable about degus which is brilliant, they are in good hands with you |
|
seed
Newborn Degu
Posts: 4
|
Post by seed on Apr 1, 2019 1:02:34 GMT
savvy We're sure Fudge is a boy but once Roland/Gizmo settle and relax a little we'll be checking them to make sure, so can't hurt to check Fudge out too just in case.
Weight-wise he came in at 243g last check, which seems at the upper end of healthy weight. He got a lot of treats as a lone boy, but that's not the deal anymore with his two new friends arriving.
Yeah idk, maybe it's all suddenly sunk in for him or something. He'd been okay for so long, but it was fortunate we found Roland/Gizmo just as this behavior started.
moletteuk
It began totally out of the blue, there's been no changes around his cage for around two months preceding the behavior changes. It has however grown more... extreme... vigilant? over the course of the two weeks it's been going on. I've cleaned underneath the cage, tidied around it, moved treats/food/bedding/hay from underneath into a different room- even the petsafe disinfectant and brush/pan used to clean around & inside his cage. Cleaned the front of the cage, searched for anything possible. For the life of me i can't say it's anything in this room. This is an old building and it's entirely possible that there are mice somewhere being on the ground floor and having cellar/basement space, but i haven't really noticed any signs. We started letting him out more, and letting him explore different rooms around the flat but he's generally not been interested in the past week. He seems frustrated when he's out, and then goes back to dig around the front of the cage, popping in and out. We still offer him the opportunity to come out but it's often not taken up on.
It's puzzling for sure, but at least nothing harmful has occurred. We try and provide things for him to dig in but honestly he just wants the front of the cage clear. It's really strange! Thankfully the bar chewing has relented today. Hoping to see how he gets on and how Roland/Gizmo to get a bit more confident before we try and introduction. If Fudge calms a bit we might swap a bit of bedding in the next few days.
deguconvert
Light/ Light-availability is definitely something we've considered- this is a dark flat and is quite dim even at the best of times. After Toffee died, we moved him into our main living space and keep him near the window. Unfortunately it's not privy to much intense sunlight throughout the day, but he gets as much as the window lets in until dark. UV lighting would certainly be possible and if it might help i'd pick some up, however with us moving in a month or so i've got a better, lighter spot planned for him. (I have to stress it's not dim/dark all day, just that it's a rear facing window and we live centrally so we're beset by buildings. It's just not the brightest place being ground floor. Part of the reason we're moving lol.)
The two cages sit next to eachother, about two inches apart. We thought to avoid any potential tailbitings. He's been speaking to the new boys intermittently today whilst going about his business, nothing too much just little moments of interest. Hopefully this bodes well for future introduction. I'll maybe see about moving them closer by tomorrow night.
As for the new additions, we've been sitting by their cage and offering them a seed or herb bits/peaflakes through the bars. They're still very timid- Gizmo moreso than Roland. Gizmo will run and hide at a pindrop, but will eventually take a treat if it's offered patiently. Early days yet, they've only been here since Friday night and it was a long journey for them so i think they're still to settle and get used to things. I don't think they received a lot of attention as the previous owner had also changed jobs and lost the time to spend with them, as with Fudge & Toffees original owner. They were well cared for though, and it was a shame the owner had to let them go.
zenaida
That's the thing- we're not sure if he's just developed strange traits after having to spend so long alone. It was sudden, but has increased in occurrence and compulsiveness steadily. It's totally possible that a minor irritant has just caused a habit. Unfortunately i'm out of ideas as to what it could be, although i'd like to improve the light situation as deguconvert mentioned.
Mostly i'll be keeping an eye on his eating and weight to see if he changes that way. We're thinking of booking him in to a degu experienced vet that was recommended to us recently, just to give him a check and maybe have a look at his teeth in case that's got something to do with bar chewing. Maybe it's a combination of little things getting to him?
misscatafer
Loneliness was my first concern too- hopefully Roland/Gizmo arriving will distract him a bit. They were originally from P@H so we're definitely going to check twice. Too many horror stories, i don't think we could handle a litter.
We're ready (as you can ever be) for introductions, after having to re-introduce Fudge & Toffee after we got them. Will definitely have a towel and/or spray bottle handy if anything in bad sport breaks out.
Fudge has been less obsessive today and being paired with the fact he's been talking to Roland & Gizmo, i'm hoping the company is doing him some good. Maybe as the three of them settle into having eachother around we'll see changes.
|
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 1, 2019 2:37:33 GMT
LOTS of excellent information in your replies! Thank you, Seed, for taking the time to do that! It really sounds like he is taking heart from the presence of Roland and Gizmo. Very encouraging news all around. You must be feeling better as well! With the move of your household to a new location in a months time, I wouldn't put a whole lot of effort into introductions before that time. The change they will experience out of your home now, and into a new home, will most certainly cause some upset that will have to go through a new settling once you are in the new place. Having them beside each other for now is really good. I like the two inches apart . . . tail preservation is a real thing!! As is toe preservation. Lighting . . . a subject of increasing study here . . . lots of natural daylight is a really good thing for them, and they all seem to love the opportunity to sunbathe, but just realize that there is no UV light penetrating the windows, which means there is also no natural development of Vit D within their bodies. That you are going to a brighter abode is excellent, and will do you all good, but procuring a UV lamp for your degus will also be a good addition to their cage accessories at some point. His weight is a good weight, but degus can vary in size considerably, and we have degus on the forum that are very healthy, not at all fat, but are 300 (even more) grams. Which seems large indeed, but it really depends on the individual degu. Is it your hope to have all three degus in one of the cages you have, or will you be working to combine the two cages into one, once you have a successful introduction? |
|
seed
Newborn Degu
Posts: 4
|
Post by seed on Apr 1, 2019 12:47:04 GMT
deguconvertIt's definitely good to see his weird behavior dull a bit, i'll be keeping an eye over the next few days to see how he acts. Any recommendations on UV lamps? Good to know he could just be a bigboy rather than a fatboy. We've worried about his weight from time to time but he's always been active on his wheels etc. The only change i've ever seen in his routine is all of this strange digging and bar chewing(which admittedly is starting to reduce). The plan is to get another Liberta-style cage (The guy that we got Roland & Gizmo from needs to get rid of their old cage, which is exactly the same as Fudge's cage, so he's holding it for us until we move) and see if i can find a way to join them together but retain the ability to turn them back to separate cages- just in case. This all depends on space in the new place, we can definitely fit two cages but i'm not sure about two joined horizontally yet. If not i'm gonna extend one of the half shelves in the Liberta-copy into a full floor and do a basement extension just to bring it up to par for 3 occupants. The old, modified cage that used to be Fudge & Toffee's home is still good but is a hassle(a major 2+hour operation) to clean due to it's construction and the shelving i've made for it. Our friends are looking to get more rats so it's up for grabs to them if they need a cage in between buying something more ideal. Otherwise it's disposal time.
|
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Apr 1, 2019 19:31:46 GMT
A thread on UV light here: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19147/interesting-page-on-providing-light?page=1You can use the 'parrot' lamp mentioned in the thread or if your cage is spacious you could consider a 'rainforest' strength light either in a tube format or a regular edison screw lightbulb format. Weights can vary a lot, generally 250g in a UK degu isn't fat, it's about average, but you have to go by feel and eye of how they seem, frame size can vary a lot. Does he have access to the cage on the outside of where he is digging? I'm just curious if that would tell you anything about his mission. |
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 1, 2019 20:07:50 GMT
|
|
seed
Newborn Degu
Posts: 4
|
Post by seed on Apr 2, 2019 0:33:58 GMT
moletteukThanks for the link, i'll have to think on how we'd suspend the bulbs/shades as fitting inside our cages would be unsafe. The space fudge digs on most is the first half-shelf, two-ish feet off the ground. I've sat with a big tub at the level of that shelf and let him come in and out of the tub rather than onto me in case that's part of it. I don't know how much to read into it but he seems almost confused or frustrated, coming in and out and then digging along the front facing edge of the metal tray. It actually started on the bottom floor, but mysteriously moved to the first shelf. Bar-chewing is always along the faces he digs along, but if you open the cage door or place chews along those bars he'll chew that instead (or ignore the bars if the door is open), preferring to prioritise digging. Now if we take him out onto our hands he'll start trying to dig on our palms, pretty intensely! We're generally not handling him at the moment as there's too much opportunity for an accident or a scare. We originally thought he'd lost a treat or peaflake he'd buried, but it's clearly more compulsive. At this point it's at least reduced from almost all day to maybe two or three 20/30 minute bursts. All i can assume is that Roland & Gizmo are distracting him from it. Also good to know his weight isn't much of a concern! Any more though and he'd risk starting to develop a slight ball shape. He was always bigger than Toffee in frame. Roland and Gizmo look dainty compared. deguconvertThat photo is exactly what i am thinking! I had a look at Fudge's cage, it shouldn't really be that hard to do at all. Hopefully we have enough space in the new place- it would be great for them. Then a double basement extension is on the cards. Is there such thing as too much space? Fudge's behaviour is still strange but it's definitely cooling down a bit. It's a bit strange that he's kind of a nuisance to handle now and is best ferried via. tub but he's not aggressive, just really, really into digging stuff. In the other cage, Gizmo is being a big scared boy and getting a bit territorial/aggressive it seems, so we'll have to take it slow with them in general before we even think about intros. He's extremely skittish, will bark and attempt to bite aggressively(and succeed, once) at hands putting food bowls in cages if they're not careful! He seems to feel quite threatened. He's really not ready for any interaction from us, i assume it's just the stress of his big move as he's fine with Roland. I'm sure he'll eventually get used to us and gain a bit of trust but it's just going to be a case of being calm and careful with him. He'll take a treat if he can examine it from a distance and come to it himself, which gives me the feeling he might settle in due time. I also get the feeling he's not going to be the type of degu that likes any handling, which is okay. Different strokes and that. Slightly unrelated, but i was wondering if anybody had any experience with auboise hemp chips (without citronella)? I'm looking for something more economical than carefresh. How is the consistency of auboise? Is it dusty/dustier than carefresh?
|
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 2, 2019 2:47:13 GMT
We have a "Cage bedding reviews" thread . . . deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8754/cage-bedding-reviews . . . which you might find very interesting to read! The last page of that thread, there is this product . . . deguworld.proboards.com/post/190863/thread . . . recently tried and approved by our Moderator, Savvycat. Hopefully you will find some things in there you are interested in trying! As for the cage digging . . . there can be so many unknowns that contribute to the act, grief and loneliness certainly being very powerful ones . . . but sometimes there is just no discernible reason at all. I had one boy that would sweep the whole bottom of the cage by the hour, piling all the substrate up into a back corner. I would go in, put it all back in place, and off he would go again, sweeping it all away. Then he would go back over it, sweeping the already naked areas again and again. Literally polishing it to a shine. The longer this went on, the more I kept putting the bedding back into it's intended location, the louder his swearing would be as he "cleaned" it all up again. Then suddenly he stopped caring, and didn't ever do it again. BUT a few years later we had a much larger cage, and a group of females in our home, and one of the ladies took to doing the same thing. THIS time, I just let her do her thing. She was a few months at it, and then just like our boy, she just . . . stopped, and all was normal again. There have been others report this same thing, and in each case, it comes to an end eventually and all is settled again. Gizmo may need extra time and effort to build a bond with you, but that is something you can choose to do or not. Depending on what you feel is needed. I had a degu that was so fearful that he was aggressive and repeatedly drew blood. (He had lost half his tail as a result of careless treatment by the staff at the pet store, and evidence suggested he remembered that injury and terror vividly.) Having small children, and the fact that we as a family interacted with him and his two brothers outside of the cage on a daily basis, I felt it was necessary to win his confidence. It took months, and blood, and unrelenting determination to be patient and forgiving (SO many bites LOL), but he did learn that I could be trusted, and became a delight to handle. |
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Apr 2, 2019 10:01:08 GMT
OK, if he's digging the floor of a shelf that he can see all the way round and below then it has definitely gone beyond any reason, good news anyway that he is doing better.
Very occasionally they can fight over extra space, usually it's a playpen or part of a room that is significant in size and suddenly opens up to them, there's usually a way round it, not something to worry about.
I used aubiose, I liked it, but I combined it with Fitch for high pee areas, Fitch is very similar to carefresh but cheaper if that is what you are after. I think they work well together, the aubiose fills in the gaps to give a flatter walking surface. The aubiose is a little dustier towards the bottom of the bag, but generally pretty low on dust.
|
|
we took him off to the vets and got some anti-inflammatory and antibiotic medications and took him home. She self admittedly wasn't a degu specialist but had treated a few before, although she couldn't diagnose anything for certain. Toffee made it through the night after lots of cuddles but sadly passed away the next afternoon.
