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Post by Annie95 on Oct 8, 2018 1:18:33 GMT
So.. our babies just had babies. I was wondering how long you should wait to start handling them, and if I should clean out their nest area as theres quite a bit of "residue" if you will.. their nest is actually a bigger bath house for Chinchillas, currently stocked with toilet paper. I don't want to do anything to hurt them, or upset mom and dad. I just want them to be socialized by the time they're old enough to separate out.. also I have the Critter Nation cage.. are those bars narrow enough to leave alone, or should I find something to cover the spaces with?
I'm so lost and so scared of screwing up with them that I'm second guessing everything.
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 8, 2018 10:16:23 GMT
I'm not really the baby advice person, but I would just fish out the worst bits from the nest but leave most of it as it is until the babies are up and about and active, this won't take long, a few days. Critter Nation bars should be OK, I think they are 12mm, but weave some cardboard between the bars if you are concerned. Take out the wheel too.
When was the birth? Was there a lot of blood loss from the mum, is she OK?
Did you separate out dad before the birth? If not the mom is likely to be pregnant again.
Are you feeding extra nuts, seeds and forage and plenty of calcium for mum?
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 8, 2018 11:41:56 GMT
It had to be either sometime yesterday, or over the night before. Theres not a lot of blood and mom seems fine. We didn't know she was pregnant. I noticed she was a little thinner and I looked in their house and saw the bedding move. So dad was not separated
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 8, 2018 12:55:19 GMT
Get him separated now if at all possible.
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 8, 2018 22:31:55 GMT
Update: we had one pup die. We found it outside the nest, and I dont know if it went there on ownit's own, or if mom or dad moved it.
Has anyone had this happen? Help?
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 9, 2018 1:08:14 GMT
It is not overly common, but it does happen. The why of it is not so easily determined. It is possible that that pup was not strong and could not survive. It is very rare for degus to kill their young like hamsters and other rodents are known to do. I am guessing that there are no injuries visible on the pup? I can't think why it is out of the nest, except that perhaps it was removed. Often pups that die are buried under the substrate by the mother or father. (Hopefully you have him removed by this point?) Failure to thrive is a possibility. Pups are very mobile very quickly and it is not at all unusual to see pups exploring beyond the nest within a short few hours of birth. However the first four weeks of life, pups are incapable of self regulation of body heat and they need to be kept warm. I often tell owners who have a first litter to keep an eye on the pups and if they find one wandering about alone, to pick it up and see if it feels cool. If it is cool it is essential that it be warmed up, so tuck it into your shirt, and then pop it back into the nest with the rest of the pups to continue to stay warm.
It is also very important to prevent the pups from climbing or traversing on things that can create the potential for a fall. A fall is a dangerous thing to a pup.
Bump up the nutrition amounts available to Momma goo. She is expending a lot of energy to nurse the pups and to recover from her pregnancy and delivery. Make sure you have forage, appropriate oils seeds that have the right calcium to phosphorus ratio (2:1) so that her milk contains what the pups need for their growth, and she is getting what she needs for herself. Pups will begin trying out the food in about 10 days, and will begin to eat it with increasing interest until they are about 4 weeks of age when they will wean. Pups eat A LOT!!
I'll try to think of what else to pass on to you.
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 9, 2018 3:51:54 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on Oct 9, 2018 7:34:24 GMT
Pile up substrate at the door or build a ramp up to the door another way so that they can get back in.
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Post by bouncy on Oct 9, 2018 18:50:14 GMT
As the others have said, please get dad out immediately! Mum is at her most fertile as soon as she's given birth, so you may end up with another litter in three months! Once weaned, any,boys can move in with dad.
I'm wondering if part of the reason the pup died is because it got cold, having worked its way out of the nest? Keep an eye on any stragglers, and don't be afraid to pop them back in the nest.
I second the high calcium, especially if you do end up with back to back pregnancies.
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Post by ntg on Oct 9, 2018 19:22:36 GMT
Hi again, Annie! The others have given you some solid advice so far but I can't stress enough how important it is that you separate Mr Goo from Mrs Goo and the pups to try and prevent another pregnancy, although the deed may very well already be done at this stage. This is basially going to be a reiteration of advice but hopefully with it being all in one place then it'll be easier for you to refer back to. First off, before the pups become too active, you'll want to baby-proof your cage. This means no high falls (preferably by containing them to one level if possible), removing the wheel, and narrowing the bar space to make sure the little blighters can't squeeze through. Molette's advice of winding cardboard through the bars is a great idea as it'll also prevent them from climbing the bars when the get a little more adventurous. Secondly, Mrs Goo will need extra nutrients to keep her weight and energy up - it's hard work chasing after and feeding pups all day! This would include oil seed mixes and small amounts of nut pieces/ground nuts as has been suggested (see the seed, veg, & nut chart for safe items: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-charts). Try not to feed too many grains though - although they're high in energy they're very low in calcium which won't be good for her while she's feeding the pups/may be pregnant again. Since you're in the US, it's a bit more difficult to find reasonably priced sellers but amazon or there may be some wholesalers listed in this thread ( deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16569/links-herb-supplies-american-threads ) that do some of the items. Thirdly, don't be afraid to pop them back in the house if you think they've been outside for too long, and if they do feel cold then do as deguconvert suggests and pop them into your shirt and just warm them up a little before putting them back - Mum won't mind! As for the house, I'd agree with molette that if you just give them a ramp of sorts then they should be able to get back inside okay. If you have bendy logs then they would be ideal as you can just bend it to the right height/angle. Alternatively, things like upside-down bowls can act as good steps to get in and out. Finally, enjoy them! They won't stay little for long and they will start running circles round you before you know it!
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 9, 2018 22:26:58 GMT
When I get home I'm going to take out the upper level of the cage. I'm definitely going to line the cage in cardboard also, I've been wanting to do that anyway so I can put more bedding down instead of what they have now. I've been a horrible goo parent lately and haven't had much extra cash to upgrade their cage. Right now it's a floor of leftover laminate flooring with shavings scattered thinly. I'll put a more substantial layer when I install the cardboard which should also help with the height scare.
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 9, 2018 23:09:53 GMT
I also popped by the store and picked up spinach, poppy seeds, celery seed, and new chew blocks and s new igloo for them!
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Post by ntg on Oct 9, 2018 23:29:27 GMT
Taking the top level out may be more dangerous for them if they start to climb. Instead, what I'd recommend is to put something like a heavy tile over the pophole and stick Dad up in the top level if you don't have a second suitable cage to put him in at the moment.
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 10, 2018 0:39:24 GMT
Ntg, my critter nation is just one floor with the shelf. I dont yet have the double story one. I did the modifications as you can see here, but I worry now that I added the other house that they may accidentally abandon the babies in the old nest if they move or that some of the babies may go into the wrong one once they start exploring.. Should I remove it? Or trust their parenting? Any additional suggestions would be HIGHLY appreciated
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 10, 2018 1:25:25 GMT
I think you can leave both in. Just check in them often to make sure that no one is lost or alone and getting chilled. Critter Nation cages are tall enough that you could put in a second level and make it so that Daddy goo can't access the lower levels . . . thus effectively separating them . . . although . . . I hate to say it, you may well already have a second litter on the way. Still, a second complete level in there will be space that is much appreciated by all the degus you now have, and if you rehome all your pups, will certainly not go amiss with Momma and Daddy goo!!
Can I ask you if you have given any thought to the implications of having an intact male and female together? Their numbers increase alarmingly fast, and the cost of food increases painful. They are truly lovely animals, but the more there are in your home, the harder the care for them becomes. I am speaking from personal painful experience. If you have any female pups in there, and if Daddy is still with them by the time they are six weeks of age, he will impregnate them. He absolutely will. The average litter size is 5-6 pups, but litters as large as 10-11 have been known. Male pups by the age of 8 weeks can impregnate any females. Again, this is something I know personally. Females that are impregnated young face greater difficulty with delivering their pups, and death rates for both pups and very young mothers is higher. So, if in four and a half months you have all the pups that have just been born, and you have a second litter of pups that are six weeks old, with mixed sexes all together, you could have an explosion of numbers beyond control. I urge you to very carefully consider this, and then think of what you can do, or can afford, that will stop you from being completely overwhelmed. We will do what we can to help you look over options, possibilities, and will encourage you all we can. We truly will, love.
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Post by Annie95 on Oct 10, 2018 1:52:12 GMT
Oh I absolutely have given it thought. I'm looking right now for another cage. As soon as they're old enough, I'm going to separate momma and the gals, and daddy goo with the boys.
That way no one is lonely, and we have no more babies!
I tried separating dad but that seemed to stress them both out horribly, and he kept just jumping and smacking his head on the top of the aquarium I had him in. I was afraid he would get hurt.
The absolute last thing I want to do now that I actually know a little more than taking the word of who I got them from, is creating an overpopulation problem. We have five babies plus mom and dad. I should be able to manage them comfortably when I get another cage and they all get sexed/separated.
I also have several family members who have expressed interest in getting a same sex pair once they're old enough, if I dont think I can manage them all. I think the biggest obstacle I'm going to have is getting two cages large enough for them.
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Post by deguconvert on Oct 10, 2018 3:27:13 GMT
Something you need to know is that the pups need to be left with Mom, and Dad if he is still in there, until five weeks of age, at which time you can separate them into same sex groups. Normally we stress that pups should be left with Mom up to 7 weeks of age, but in this case, since Daddy goo is still there, you really need to have him apart from the ladies when the pups are five weeks. Since the male pups will be living with him, they will still be learning from an older degu all there is to know about degu behavior. As will the girls. Before that age, it is too soon to be apart from Mom. They may be weaned at four weeks, but that doesn't mean they are old enough just yet.
We often encounter new owners who have obtained their new degu pups at the age of four or five weeks, and it is just too early for them to have been separated from the adults yet. There is SO much learning that they take in during those two weeks and it makes a huge difference in their behaviors and confidence.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 10, 2018 18:49:07 GMT
What part of Ohio are you in? There are several Critter Nation cages on craigslist right now. One is cheap (might only be the second unit, hard to tell from the ad) and a couple of the others are overpriced but negotiate with them on it, since bent bars and missing shelves mean they shouldn't be charging any more than half the lowest cost of a new one. Plus, with so many degus now, you are going to need more space. A single critter nation, even with the half shelf as well, is not actually enough room for 2 degus, they need lots of territory and can end up fighting each other and causing injury if crowded for too long.
You need to get Dad separated from Mom and the babies even if they fuss, as IF she isn't already pregnant again, every minute they are together makes it more likely she will be. Having back to back litters at such a young age is going to be very hard on her little body. And, the five-six weeks that you have, until the pups need to be separated by gender, are going to go by very quickly. Miss the separation point by just a week or so, and your babies will be having babies, inbred babies, which puts the females at risk of death from birthing complications, and the babies at risk of health problems or death from being inbred. Let alone that in a mere four-five months from now, you could be looking at over 30 degus if even just 3 of those babies are female.
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Post by winic1 on Oct 10, 2018 20:21:50 GMT
Here, this link is to a recent thread by a member whose new degu turned out to be pregnant, and had the pups just several weeks ago. It covers just about everything you need to know at this point, other than removing the Dad from the cage (because hers was already pregnant when she got it, and she had no male of her own) deguworld.proboards.com/thread/22283/christine
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Post by winic1 on Oct 10, 2018 20:30:15 GMT
And have you read this, yet? Basics of Babies deguworld.proboards.com/thread/1363/basics-babiesAnd in here, at this point you need to pay special attention to nutrition, Mom should have the healthiest, fullest diet you can manage, in unrestricted amounts (of the healthy stuff) and extra of the healthier treats. She is now eating for six, even if five of them are small. As soon as they start sampling food, you may need to add even more to the bowl. In the Diet and Feeding section are several links to charts about food and nutrition. If you have questions after reviewing these, feel free to ask away, as it's a lot to take in all at once.
Basic Degu Care (scroll down to the Diet and Feeding section, but also read the rest as you now have 7 reasons to learn it all) deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19754/beginners-guide-degu-keeping
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