Separation of two brothers permanently- need advice

[thisismymessageboard]

I have two male Degus that are brothers. They are almost five years old. Up until late last year, they have always lived with each other.

They have adequate space, separate food bowls/wheels/nesting areas in their liberta (2nd ed) with extra platforms.

They definitely have clashing personalities. One is far more grumpy and reserved than the other. The grumpy Goo is also the less dominant. 

Over the years, they have been fairly happy together. Lots of cuddles, and they would play together. They would occasionally fall out and have minor scraps, but they had never bitten each other or drew blood. 

However, late last year, the fights starting getting more frequent and severe.

Grumpy Goo became less and less tolerant of the Alpha goo's mounting/excessive attention.

This was an issue that was boiling between them for a long time. It seemed to escalate slowly. Grumpy Goo was becoming more and more pissed off at being mounted.

Around October of 2017, the Grumpy, less dominant Goo finally fully challenged the Alpha Goo's dominance and they engaged in a FBOD.

I was able to separate them during this fight, but the Alpha Goo came away with deep cuts to his face/neck and almost lost an eye from a bite. This experience deeply upset and possibly traumatized Alpha goo, I have never seen him so scared. He wouldn't leave my lap the day following this fight and would whimper a lot.

I separated them immediately and partitioned the cage. Alpha Goo was nursed back to health and made a good recovery in about a month.

Sometime around November, Alpha Goo broke through the partition somehow and managed to attack grumpy goo. Alpha goo bit grumpy goo exactly where he had been attacked himself, and grumpy goo almost lost the same eye in return. 

Both of these FBODs lasted mere seconds as I immediately separated them. It's crazy how quickly they can do damage. 

I changed the partition from wire mesh to a metal sheet so there is no way they can break through again. They are still separated.

I have tried one re-introduction - after a few months apart - recently. I did all of the right things trying to re-introduce them, taking it very slowly. Finally, they met on neutral ground. They were happy to groom each other and both warbled for about ten minutes, but then Grumpy goo lunged at Alpha goo. Grumpy goo will not allow Alpha goo to be the Alpha anymore, it seems. I managed to put my hand in-between them as Grumpy Goo lunged, and I received a nasty deep bite on my hand. Degu bites HURT. My hand was swollen for days and it took very long for the pain to subside. It was like someone had hit my hand with a hammer. That's how it felt. Luckily they didn't manage to bite each other at all during this third encounter.

They are now living separately in the cage, one in the top half and one in the lower. They can't get to each other, but they can talk to each other and see each other due to a long mirror I have placed right besides the cage.

Grumpy Goo actually seems to be better - mentally - on his own. He was sick of being chased around and mounted, and who can blame him really.

In fact, both of them are doing much better than I had thought on their own. Alpha Goo seems to be suffering the most, and has been over-grooming one of his paws since the separation. Alpha goo gets excited when he sees Grumpy Goo, but Grumpy Goo remains Grumpy & standoff-ish. 

Has anyone else been through something similar? I really don't know what to do given their age and temperament. It seems risky bringing other degus into the situation, I don't think it would be easy to introduce these two to new degus. My Degus are getting old and grumpy. I don't have the money or time right now for more cages and slow introductions, either.

They are both incredibly tame (they weren't when they were young) and let me scoop them up, scratch their bellies/cheeks/behind the ears. They'll even come running when I call their name and they are out of the cage. They don't seem majorly depressed and continue to eat normally following the separation.

I guess the million dollar question is: Can Degus ever really be happy on their own?

I think re-introducing these two is a lost cause, and I try to give them as much attention as I can to fill the void. It's very upsetting that these two can't get along anymore, especially as they were happy together for many years (over 4).

Thanks in advance to anyone who reads this long post. I feel bad for them, but after a few months separated i'm starting to think that this is the only option available. 

[savvy]

Welcome to the forum! I'm sorry to read about the problems you're experiencing.

To me, this sounds so familiar! I went through a degu divorce with my original pair Pixie and Dixie, and it's traumatic to watch. They too had been together their whole lives, had the odd disagreement, then one day full FBOD! Dixie even pulled a a heavy slate divider out of the way with his teeth, to get to poor Pixie and resume the battle.

I too had to separate them, couldn't get them back together at all and they lived side by side (I bought a second aventura cage for Pixie.) Pixie unfortunately died a few months later (not from his injuries, or from being alone), and now I have Dixie still in his original cage with Bumblebee in Pixies cage next to him while I attempt intros.

Dixie has been fine on his own, BUT, he does have sight, smell and interaction with Bumblebee, which is essential. Would it be possible to place their cages side by side? I know you said you'd split the cage, but one on top and one on the bottom may escalate the problem as the one on top tends to assume the dominant role while the other fights for it.

If you can tell us what cage you have, we may be able to offer practical solutions for modification which will allow them to live side by side which may help with a reintroduction. But I know from experience that it's not always possible to get them back together.

How's the bite? They can be very nasty.

Apologies for the long response, but we'll help in anyway we can.

[bouncy]

Hi, and never apologise for a long post on here. We like to have as much information as possible!

First, the answer to the million dollar question - no. We've had many lone goos on here in the past. Their hooman slaves think they're doing fine, and are particularly chuffed because their relationships with their fluffs seems much closer. Unfortunately, a hooman can never take the place of another goo. I mean, have you ever tried burrowing, nesting, or grooming with your teeth? *hairball hack* After taking advice, they have sought company for their fluffs and, although the hooman/goo relationship reverts back,they've all said that their goos are so much happier. Alpha is already showing signs of separation anxiety by overgrooming, which kinda highlights his distress at being alone.

It is strange that they should fall out in such a big way after five years, but not unheard of. There's lots of factors to consider:

1) have you changed anything in your household? Something new, another pet, a regular visitor, even your air freshener or deodorant?
2) is there anything going on in your street? Has anyone got builders in? A new puppy? A new kids toy?
3) have you subtly changed anything in the cage? A new brand of cleaner, different brand or scent of woodshavings?

Degus are fickle, and there's every chance of getting them back together in the long term, so please don't give up hope yet. The thing to remember is not to push it. They can bear grudges longer than any scorned woman!

I have an extremely alpha goo in one of my groups. Every couple of months, he pushes Scaredygoo too far and something snaps. Scaredygoo will either actively retaliate and put him back in his place, or Spidergoo (alpha) will actively stalk Scaredy, pouncing and attacking him whenever he makes an appearance, even forbidding him from leaving the cage. Although I now have command over Spidey (wagging my finger at him), he did once go for Scaredy's jugular. When he continually misbehaves now, I dump him in the carry cage. I put it on the stool so it's cage height and he can watch the others running around having fun, and he's very meek after a few hours.

[thisismymessageboard]

Thanks for the quick responses

The liberta can't be separated horizontally unfortunately without major modifications - I have an idea on how to do it but i'm not sure if I can pull it off.

I have alternated between swapping bedding & swapping them between the cages, yes.

I fear that Grumpy goo will attack the Alpha if they are left together for too long... Even if I manage a successful introduction. Leading up to the FBODs, Grumpy Goo would stalk the Alpha (like bouncy said) and pounce on his back and the Alpha HATED this.

I moved house recently due to work, a few hundred miles away. I think the change of environment upset the hierarchy and now Grumpy won't give Alpha an inch. When they wrestle, Grumpy will escalate it very quickly.

They still spend time next each other's cages each day so they can talk to each other through the bars face-to-face, but all I see is aggression from the Grumpy goo. It doesn't matter what side of the bars he is on.

Unfortunately, I am losing hope. They have both attacked each other with enough violence to cause death. If I hadn't been there to separate them, I doubt they'd both be alive. They almost blinded each other. I had to physically pry Alpha goo's teeth from Grumpy's face in the second FBOD.

When Grumpy is in the top cage, he will try to tunnel down aggressively to get at Alpha. When he's in the bottom, he shows the same signs of aggression. I think Grumpy is totally rejecting his former cage-mate. I don't think they will get along. This was something that escalated over many, many months while they still lived together. I am extremely concerned about putting them back together, even if they seemed stable.

The thing that upsets me is Alpha's separation anxiety, I know he wants his old buddy back. But Grumpy is extremely hostile.

It seems like the only sensible thing to do is save money for a new cage like savvycat mentioned, so they can have loads of room and be at the same level. But I'm REALLY tight on money right now. It's not possible right now. Maybe try to adopt a female degu/degus when I have money and castrate Alpha/Grumps.

I don't want them to be alone, but i'm 99.99% sure they'll kill each other given the chance. It's a tough one.

[moletteuk]

I think the timing is the bit that is slightly unusual. I also wonder if something in the environment might have changed or if there is a possibility that one of them may have a hidden health condition. It's very difficult to indentify these things, things that might slightly upset the psychological balance or long term health conditions that no tests exist for degus. It'w worth having a think about it, but don't tie yourself in knots.

I think I would be inclined to try to house them with a VERY secure side by side meeting place. It is possible to add another full level at the top of the lower half of the cage and then split that so they both have access. This example shows a full level at the top of the cage, and it's not split, but you will get an idea deguworld.proboards.com/search/results?captcha_id=captcha_search&who_at_least_one=4631&what_at_least_one=cage&where_thread_title=show+us+your+cage&display_as=0&search=Search There are other ways of doing it, just make sure the divide has a double layer of mesh at least at first and that the structure of it is bomb proof. The idea is that they will both benefit from the sight and smell of each other, and you might get an idea of their attitude to each other without any risk.

Cross post with last reply - ignore bits you have just covered.

[thisismymessageboard]

Thanks Molettuk

I had to move house while the relationship was already fractious, and I think the change of environment pushed them over the edge.

I think the best option I have is to try to house them with a secure side by side meeting place like you said. Thanks for posting the link.

If they can 'get along' again through a horizontal divider it might be worth another try.

Thanks all

[bouncy]

Just an idea for housing. If you can use mesh to create a top to the lower section, why not take the top section off the Liberta and put it next to the other?

I think moletteuk has made a good suggestion really illness. Have a really close look at each of them and their eating habits, but it may not be something you can see, like molar roots. My Scaredygoo is the only one who has a long-term health condition, and I have often thought his behaviour is Spidey's way of protecting him.

Are they in a comparable location in the new house? Is there a fan or other background noise?

[thisismymessageboard]

That's a good idea Bouncy, but the liberta can't be separated like that, I have tried. It's annoying.

They are in a much quieter location and they have a huge window to look out of everyday now. They also have their own room now, so yes the location is very different in many aspects. That being said, the fight was inevitable imo. Grumpy was seriously challenging for dominance back in 2017.

It might be relevant, but they did have two other brothers when they were young. They both died, sadly, and Grumpy also became very sick and almost lost his life to the same illness that took the other two. It took almost 6 months to nurse grumpy back to health... this was back in 2014.

When there were four of them, the hierarchy was much more stable and Alpha could take out his humping on the other two degus, but now that there's only two of them left I think Grumpy is just sick and tired of being the sole recipient of Alpha's attention. Alpha mounts him way too much and I think Grumpy just needs some peace after a somewhat traumatic life.

I feel bad for both of them. Alpha gets very excited when he's face-to-face with Grumpy and does the whole "I'm about to hump you" squeals and tail wagging. Grumpy just grinds his teeth at him and flicks his tail in that aggressive way. It's been over 6 months since I separated them, I hope they will calm down once I figure out how to create a safe horizontal divide.

Thanks again

[deguconvert]

Hello Thisismymessageboard, and welcome to the forum. At this point I have nothing to add to what has already been suggested. I wanted to post though and let you know I had seen your thread and will be watching to see how things are going. Just know that we are very aware and most of us are also personally experienced with this very situation and difficulty. We TOTALLY empathize with what you are feeling and going through. We will do all we can to encourage you and help you find the right solution (if in any way possible) for you and your goos.

[thisismymessageboard]

Thank you deguconvert. I guess I wasn't really expecting a magic bullet to fix the problem, it's a really tough one. I'll post again if I have another question to ask, and if I manage to get them back together i'll post about it... hopefully to help other people in the same situation. Degus really are very complex, my two have such different personalities and nuances. It's incredible. I think Grumpy is traumatized still from his childhood. I earned his trust by 'manually' feeding him and keeping him hydrated, keeping an eye on him 24/7 when he was seriously unwell. Like falling over on his side, ready to die kind of unwell. He's a fighter but he has such a bad temper, he'll grunt at me if i'm doing something he doesn't like. Never once bit me on purpose and always uses his hands to communicate rather than his teeth. Real cute. I miss their brothers, and I think they do too.

[thisismymessageboard]

Update: Managed a successful - albeit short (5 minute) - introduction. The Goos were very happy to see and groom each other and Grumpy even allowed Alpha to mount him. They actually ignored each other for half the introduction, which is a good sign imo.

Things became a little heated once Grumpy tried to mount Alpha in return, so I decided to separate them on a positive note before it got sour.

This is the first face-to-face introduction in many months.

The fighting is always precipitated by Grumpy trying to mount Alpha and Alpha refusing to submit. Grumpy doesn't seem to enjoy being 'the bottom', but he seemed to accept being groomed & mounted by Alpha last night.

I'll keep the introductions short and sweet, increasing length every time.

It has taken months for them to stop showing hostility through the bars. I will have to be extremely cautious about leaving them together for any length of time.

[moletteuk]

Sounds good, and the plan to keep it short and sweet for now sounds good.

[thisismymessageboard]

Another update:

Two more successful short introductions, a little longer than the first... Making it 3 in total - I can't believe they are so happy to see each other again. But it's transient. They were trying to kill each other months ago. I still have to separate them because Alpha still seems way too boisterous and hump-happy.

Grumpy Goo still resents being mounted. He gave Alpha the wide-eye "death stare" (I'm sure a few of you know what I mean) today after being mounted 3 times and I had to separate them before things got bad quickly.

Alpha has stopped over grooming his hand completely and all the hair has grown back very quickly, which is really positive. His mental state has improved quite a lot just from these short introductions.

I'm thinking that I might have to create a large playpen and let them play together often; but keep them in separate cages. Leaving these two together unattended is irresponsible given the obvious risks.

An interesting note: I have stopped swapping substrate and swapping them between cages completely, and this seems to have helped the situation, for reasons I am unsure of. I think perhaps the Goo's having their own space is actually making them feel more secure about their own territory and Grumpy feels like he can always escape to his own place. Swapping substrate and cages just seems to inflame the situation. Grumpy in particular becomes grumpy when moved. I think some Degus are more territorial than others, and Grumpy has a Grumpy personality & psychological trauma and they both have poor social skills.

Poor things want each others' company, but can't tolerate each other over long periods of time. I'll keep at it and try to see how much I can help them repair their relationship.

[thisismymessageboard]

My boys a few years back

[misscatafer]

It's all good news isn't it, well done sounds like you are doing a great job. Swapping degus between cages is never really recommended as it does tend to cause all sorts of issues. Degus are so sensitive to change of any kind so you are spot on about them needing to have a safe space.

[deguconvert]

You're doing great!! Slow and steady, without getting discouraged by the occasional step or two backwards, will win the race.

[thisismymessageboard]

5th Meeting today; lasted for 30 mins where they spent 25 mins grooming each other. It is going well; they have only been engaging in short, low intensity dominance fights and I think Grumpy is accepting his place as the submissive Degu again.

I think the FBODs were precipitated/caused by fighting over food; even with their own space (eating 4 levels apart) they tend to try to steal from each others' bowls. I noticed that they were insanely defensive/possessive of their food today, even after separation. I think I will separate them in future when feeding and give them time & space to eat as i'm pretty sure this is what is pushing them over the edge.

To anyone else out there having the same problems: don't lose hope!

[moletteuk]

Great!

[deguconvert]

You're doing GREAT! Well done!

[thisismymessageboard]

Just an update/for educational purpose as there isn't much info on Degus out there;

The re-introduction/rehousing process didn't work in the end. There was a small honeymoon phase where they slept together in the same cage. It took a while and they were very friendly and grooming was almost constant. The fighting soon returned and escalated. Within days. There was almost another FBOD which I managed to separate before any bites. No one was hurt; this is an anti-climatic series of events. I have tried everything with these two boys and I think it's a wrap at this point. They have both become even more aggressive/territorial now separated. They have had 4/5 years together and the tension between them is unbearable. Grumpy will not back down and refuses to be Alpha's hump-toy 24/7; who can blame Grumpy for wanting his own space really? Alpha & Grumpy both need a female of similar temperaments.

I wouldn't recommend pairing two males together again after having this experience. Be careful girls/guys because one of mine can turn on a dime and become very violent very quickly (Grumpy).

When I have enough money; maybe around christmas; I'll buy another Liberta and look at introducing the boys to a pair of females in their own cages (after neutering)... I'll keep an eye on their health as they are getting old. Mentally they don't seem too bad and Alpha has stopped paw-grooming. I think he's accepted that they'll never be together again at this point where as before he was pining for Grumpy to return.

Not all stories have happy endings; this is life after all; but we learn from them