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Post by ntg on Aug 26, 2018 12:09:16 GMT
It makes you wonder if these people think evolution happens overnight? In reality, we haven't been breeding them for long enough to change their entire digestive system to something that no longer resembles the wild counterpart. I think they just want any excuse to only feed what's easiest for them, even though the vast majority of pellets on sale are absolutely rubbish and laden with grains etc that, oh wait, are actually the things that aren't natural to a chinchilla diet. Had the argument that they can't eat fresh items like the odd piece of veg because "all they eat in the wild is dessicated plants as they live in an arid region". Totally discounting the fact that they get their water intake from eating water-rich succulents not that I really feed veg as anything other than a treat - and even then it's a tiny amount of dried as a convenience - but being completely set against it for such an easily dismissed argument is crazy.
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Post by winic1 on Aug 26, 2018 12:33:26 GMT
And, um, plants don't grow dessicated and dead. They have to be alive and fresh at some point.....
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Post by darthchinchi on Aug 26, 2018 17:20:20 GMT
I also head one say "it's a desert" as argument on what they eat. But there's a dry and a wet season. And generally speaking the burrow below plantes... And there's a lot of natlive trees to the area. And birds, reptiles and even amphibians. Actually I asked about the fauna at one point, and was told the only thing they don't have is fish (lack of lakes and streams I'm guessing). So it might be a demo-desert biotop, but not a true desert with only shrubs that are few and far between + the odd cactai.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 26, 2018 19:06:02 GMT
My thought is that if chinchillas are now experiencing such difficulty with digestion and diet, it is obvious that the diet they have been fed has brought about a dangerous change in their gut bacteria. Clearly what is being fed, now and probably in most of the years since captivity of these animals started, is not nurturing a healthy gut flora.
As for the vegan leader of that site, has she not heard of the science that studies plants and are finding evidence of awareness? There are those who even say that plants feel pain. (My son likes to tell me that when I make salads and such, the plants feel the pain of being cut up, and they know they are dying as I eat them. Brat!) If being vegan is so as to cause no death or pain to creation that is aware and feels and suffers, then plants have apparently begun to enter into that equation. What will she eat now?
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Post by darthchinchi on Aug 26, 2018 19:33:15 GMT
I guess you could argue that they feel pain. It has been proven that some plantes can signal their neighbours when they are being attacked (eaten), and this triggers a chemcal response it the other plantes. Thats quite cool imo. But life is nothing but a battle for survical imo. Thats the same goal every species have. To survive and to make the next generation thrive.
Problem with chinchillas when they came down was, most died due to altitude problems and food. It's almost like hearing about bringing up deep sea creatures. Chinchillas just didn't adapt very well. If they were given fresh grass I would imagine it would have been a problem because wild animals are used to much drier food items, and one experiment with wild chinchillas showed they prefere the dry/dead leaves to fresh ones. If they primarily eat succulents to cover their water intake, and prefere very dry plant materiale for their noutrition source, I can see how that could be an issue if offering food made for guinea pigs/rabbits/horses/cows. They are quite often described as similar to horses in both behaviour and digestion actually (most of it is rubbish in my humle opinion).
I've noticed, animals used to fresh food preferes this, but if they are used to dry and only get fresh on occstion, they prefer the dry food items.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 27, 2018 10:10:35 GMT
The preference between fresh and dried forage in degus has always puzzled me. Mine have always shown a general preference towards dried, but sometimes they love a bit of fresh cherry leaf, dandelion or certain grass species. When they do eat fresh, or dried actually, they much prefer young growth.
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Post by darthchinchi on Nov 28, 2018 17:06:17 GMT
Not really venting, just feel like sharing this on here. It's from a fb page. No names mentioned, as there is no purpose for them.
"Play time is a treat, not an obligation.
Our post last night was sparked by reading a few comments about how a 16 year old girl should surrender/rehome her chinchilla because she doesn't give it playtime. Do you know how ridiculous that is? Yes. Abandon your pet because you don't give it play time.
I own 11 Chinchillas, and guess what? We do not have a daily play time. Not even weekly. I interact with them from their cages, and occasionally pull 1 out or take a group to my bed to socialize. My lower cages are open during cage day, and they come and go as they please.
Should I abandon my pets? No. Are my chinchillas anti-social? lol no they're not.
More often than not, you hear someone tell another that "Chinchillas must have 1-2 hours of out-of-the cage play time daily." Which in essence sounds nice, right? Well it's not.
Chinchillas are prey animals who prefer a quiet, small, den-like surrounding. In the early or late hours of the day they will come out to explore - Mostly to scavenge for food or a mate - but not to "play".
When you pull them out of their comfort zone and place them in a big empty room, you will notice that they dart around and look for small spaces to hide, right? In a box, under the cage, behind a toy, etc. That is because in their mind, they need to hide from predators. SOME chinchillas may come out on their own, and others may be totally comfortable with coming out and that is fine. There is always a chance you have and extrovert, but naturally chinchillas are introverts.
Where this mandatory 1-2 hour nonsense came from beats me, but that is exactly what it is. NONSENSE. Pet owners like to tell each other how to do things, someone started saying 1 hour, no 2 hours and others ate it up, so now it is one of the widely spread myths in our community, plus it can be really dangerous!
Many breeders won't suggest a play time, Like, at all. This is to prevent overexerting your chinchilla. They are known to have scary drops in their blood sugar when working to much, and this can lead to becoming very lethargic ( ever see your chin plop on their side after play time? They're exhausted! ) and in some cases, provoke seizures.
Many owners forget that in this 1-2 hour time frame to provide water, or monitor your pet's tempature. Yep, running around in a fur coat can cause a heat stroke... even in a room that is only 72 degrees.
We suggest if you must do a playtime, keep it low impact in a small cool space for no longer than 30 minutes. For chinchillas under 6 months should only have 15 minutes, and any under 4 months should not have any. Young chinchillas need to conserve valuable calories to grow big and strong. If you over exercise them as kits, they will grow to be unhealthy looking adults.
Many chins have gotten injured, sick, or have died during play time over time. Accidents happen. Someone chews a wire, swallows something toxic, gets stepped on, dogs/cats get into the room, it gets too hot, heart attacks, seizures, broken limbs, fights, lost in the walls/ceiling, sat on, accidentally bred, and so on. That was just a glimpse of the sad emails and messages we've received about play-time nightmares.
This is a post to just say, you don't have to. You don't have to have ridiculous play schedules to be a good owner. You don't have to invest in play structures to show you care about your pets. You don't have to stress over appeasing someone who has apparently all the time in the world to do extensive play times.
Just do you, your chinchilla may appreciate you more if you let them relax in their space."
I do agree on the main point of this. Play time is not a must. There are so many ways to keep chinchillas, and I hate it when someone gets up in your face, when they only have a few animals. The personality of the animals differ immensly, so you can't really say this or that is THE way.
Anywho, it does concern me a bit with all this "too much excersice will kill them" and "they are prey animals so prefer small places and to sit still" gibberish... Like what the hay is up with the idea that young animals shouldnt excersice at all?
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2018 18:06:56 GMT
I was kind of wondering at that as well, Darth. LOL! I was thinking . . . if your chin is laid out flat from running about, it could be out of shape . . . or terrified . . . and if it is over heated then maybe the room it is in is too warm for the animal in general.
As for the severe drops in blood sugar, I would like to know how that was determined. It suggests that it is a common occurrence that has been observed, and then documented through study that revealed dramatic changes in blood sugars, which was determined through the drawing of blood before, during, and after exertion. I admit to being rather skeptical about that though.
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Post by darthchinchi on Nov 28, 2018 18:08:05 GMT
I was kind of wondering at that as well, Darth. LOL! I was thinking . . . if your chin is laid out flat from running about, it could be out of shape . . . or terrified . . . and if it is over heated then maybe the room it is in is too warm for the animal in general. As for the severe drops in blood sugar, I would like to know how that was determined. It suggests that it is a common occurrence that has been observed, and then documented through study that revealed dramatic changes in blood sugars, which was determined through the drawing of blood before, during, and after exertion. I admit to being rather skeptical about that though. I would expect most or this to be anecdotal at best
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 28, 2018 18:08:30 GMT
Me too.
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Post by winic1 on Nov 28, 2018 18:53:24 GMT
As for the severe drops in blood sugar, I would like to know how that was determined. It suggests that it is a common occurrence that has been observed, and then documented through study that revealed dramatic changes in blood sugars, which was determined through the drawing of blood before, during, and after exertion. I admit to being rather skeptical about that though. Now having a borderline diabetic cat, and having joined a diabetic cat forum, you can test blood sugar on animals the same way you do on people--tiny prick, drop of blood onto a test strip, stick it in the meter. On cats they recommend pricking the very edge of the ear, rich in blood vessels, thin in hair. So it is conceivable that chinchillas were tested the same way. Whether it actually happened or not, who knows. But dangerously low blood sugar doesn't correct itself. The animal would have had to be fed a high sugar/carbohydrate food or solution pretty much immediately or it could die. I love (read that sarcastically) the part about young animals shouldn't run around, they need to conserve the calories for growing. Ummm...if your young chinchillas don't have enough calories to be able to move around and "play" or exercise--FEED THEM MORE, YOU IDIOTS!!!! If they are nursing and Mom is running low on calories--FEED HER MORE, YOU IDIOTS!!!! Sorry for the outburst and insult. But, Seriously??? (reminds me of my mother-in-law, who is a very sweet lady that I do love a lot, but when first had my son, who was a huge baby at birth and growing at an amazing rate his first several months (not getting fat, GROWING, taller as well as bigger), suggested that I should stop feeding him so much so he wouldn't grow so fast! Seriously!)
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Post by darthchinchi on Nov 28, 2018 19:01:42 GMT
As for the severe drops in blood sugar, I would like to know how that was determined. It suggests that it is a common occurrence that has been observed, and then documented through study that revealed dramatic changes in blood sugars, which was determined through the drawing of blood before, during, and after exertion. I admit to being rather skeptical about that though. Now having a borderline diabetic cat, and having joined a diabetic cat forum, you can test blood sugar on animals the same way you do on people--tiny prick, drop of blood onto a test strip, stick it in the meter. On cats they recommend pricking the very edge of the ear, rich in blood vessels, thin in hair. So it is conceivable that chinchillas were tested the same way. Whether it actually happened or not, who knows. But dangerously low blood sugar doesn't correct itself. The animal would have had to be fed a high sugar/carbohydrate food or solution pretty much immediately or it could die. I love (read that sarcastically) the part about young animals shouldn't run around, they need to conserve the calories for growing. Ummm...if your young chinchillas don't have enough calories to be able to move around and "play" or exercise--FEED THEM MORE, YOU IDIOTS!!!! If they are nursing and Mom is running low on calories--FEED HER MORE, YOU IDIOTS!!!! Sorry for the outburst and insult. But, Seriously??? (reminds me of my mother-in-law, who is a very sweet lady that I do love a lot, but when first had my son, who was a huge baby at birth and growing at an amazing rate his first several months (not getting fat, GROWING, taller as well as bigger), suggested that I should stop feeding him so much so he wouldn't grow so fast! Seriously!) Made me laugh several times
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Post by polly on Nov 28, 2018 20:30:52 GMT
It is well known within the chinchilla community that kits and youngsters do not control their blood sugar well. Why are non chinchilla owners so fast to condemn information unless it is proven by scientific research? I would trust my own experience and that of long term owners and breeders far more than scientific research. If you do not have experience with chinchillas, research, before commenting.
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Post by darthchinchi on Nov 28, 2018 20:37:51 GMT
It is well known within the chinchilla community that kits and youngsters do not control their blood sugar well. Why are non chinchilla owners so fast to condemn information unless it is proven by scientific research? I would trust my own experience and that of long term owners and breeders far more than scientific research. If you do not have experience with chinchillas, research, before commenting. 20+ years of experience with chinchillas here thank you very much. Know breeders who have had chinchillas far longer than I. None know of these issues... As in noone. I trust in scientific fact. Not random "facts" where people know someone who knew someone this happened to. The bloodsugar thing just isn't true, sorry to say.
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Post by winic1 on Nov 29, 2018 1:05:22 GMT
It is well known within the chinchilla community that kits and youngsters do not control their blood sugar well. Why are non chinchilla owners so fast to condemn information unless it is proven by scientific research? I would trust my own experience and that of long term owners and breeders far more than scientific research. If you do not have experience with chinchillas, research, before commenting. It was once "well known" that the Earth was flat and you would sail off the edge to your death if you went too far. Until someone researched, reasoned, tested, and proved that to be untrue. IF young chinchillas have blood sugar regulation problems, it should be EASY to get "scientific research" to prove it. It should be EASY for breeders and owners to document this. (Scientific research does not have to be done by certified, titled "scientists". Anyone following proper, reliable, consistent methods of testing and documenting can do research.) I can connect you to forums for cat diabetes that have hundreds of members testing blood sugar regularly, documenting their numbers in spreadsheets, charts, graphs, confirming by official veterinary testing, and regulating their cats blood sugar by coordinating insulin injections and feeding schedules and appropriately formulated food. Ordinary people. So, where is the data from chinchilla breeders? How do you KNOW it's low blood sugar? What form of testing is done, how is it done in relation to activity, feeding, diet, age, etc? And what do you do to treat such a situation? Because abnormally low blood sugar does NOT fix itself, it is a dangerous, potentially life-threatening situation. Biologically, it makes no sense at all that a species would develop with poor blood sugar control in its young. The species would not survive in the wild with such a built in weakness. If this is indeed a significant, documented problem among human-bred chinchillas, then the genetics of the species has been detrimentally altered by breeding, or human management of captive-bred chinchilla young is mismanagement of conditions, whether it be housing, weaning, feeding schedule, diet, handling, etc. Because no natural species survives with built-in metabolic disorders.
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Post by savvy on Nov 29, 2018 2:53:35 GMT
Got to agree with Winic. Logic would suggest that any species in the wild that has in-built genetic issue which causes low blood sugar in their young would be extinct very quickly as the young would probably not live to reach breeding age and even if they did, wouldn't have the capability to reproduce. Also, low blood sugar equals low energy levels and therefore easy pickings for any predator.
It is a well known fact, and scientifically proven, that if any species does not get enough quality food of sufficient nutritional value, and persistently low blood sugar in would be an indication that especially in younger animals, then the first thing that shuts down is the reproductive system as it's not necessary for the survival of that individual animal.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 29, 2018 11:31:50 GMT
The issue as I see it is that the old style chinchilla people think of something they want to do that makes their life easier and then use false logic to justify it.
Chinchillas in the wild have significant habitats, so if captive chinchillas can't cope with short periods of activity in a playpen or room, then it makes no sense to me to just stop the activity. Why wouldn't you think about the actual cause of the problem? Like the cages being too small for them to exercise adequately the rest of the day. Like them being fed on carb based pellets which cause peaks and troughs in blood sugar.
The solution to the space and exercise issue isn't rocket science, it's just inconvenient to humans - a very large cage with a large permanently attached playpen solves the problem.
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Post by darthchinchi on Nov 29, 2018 11:45:03 GMT
Someone is talking about young animals collapapding while out running in their new homes. Sounds weird and personally I would look into my lines, just like with malo, if young animals just collapsed and died when out on a run.
I ask my buyers to contact me if the animals die. There's a real high mortality rate with the animals I sell, and yes, it's mostly young animals, and often when they are out. HOWEVER, all can be contributed to accidents like falling or a flawed inviroment where they can get at something that kills them because they ingest stuff they shoudn't. The logic here should't be to stop all excersize, but rather to ensure the enviroment is suitable for the animals. Here we would normally reccomend play time in the bathroom as there are nothing they can get at in the average danish bathroom, or the hallway as this again, for most, is a place where the chinchillas can't hurt themselves. Some even have chinchillas roaming freely within the entire house, after they chinchilla proof it. Except for all the poop, this doesn't cause any sort of issue. It's like having a house rabbit...
The idea of them getting stepped on or sat on when out, says a lot more about the human that keeps them, than it says about the play time itself.
And as for growing. All animals need to excersize to build muscle. No wonder people end up with chinchillas with fatty liver and what not, if they give them anything thats not vitamins or hay, and the animals doesn't move at all. Then the only opportunity for the body it to store it as fat rather than use it to build muscle as there are no active muscles to build.
The logic in the community is so immensly flawed it, breaks my heart to read about it.
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Post by polly on Nov 29, 2018 18:22:07 GMT
The replies that I have just read are typical of the self opinionated and bombastic members of this forum. A breeder who allows her females to breed back. Members tenor have been banned from most of the FB forums for their comments. Self styled chinchilla experts who have never owned a chinchilla. This forum is the laughing stock of the internet chinchilla community. Be careful just who passes unnoticed through this forum and where the information given out is going.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 29, 2018 18:51:13 GMT
And yet you are the one insulting people without any rational argument on the actual topic.
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