Fighting - Dominance issues??

[worthym]

Well, up till about 3 days ago my 3 degus, Alvaro, Chucho and Sancho all got on fine.
Its suddenly all changed...
Sancho sits it all out doesn't get involved at all. At least thats a positive. He's happy where he is, and really doesn't get bothered by it all.
The problem is Alvaro and Chucho. Chucho hides under the log bridge all day. If he comes out, Alvaro will go for him. They have a quick scrap, and Chucho is back hiding under the bridge again. Alvaro also tries to get under the bridge, but Chucho will fight him if he comes too close.
I thought it was at first some sort of territorial dispute, so took away the log bridge. They scrapped some more. Seems Alvaro is sniffing around Chuchos bottom area, Chucho is turning away, lots of squeaking, suddenly theres a flurry of fighting. Then there'll be peace for a bit, until it all starts again.
I put the log bridge back, for the sake of giving Chucho somewhere to hide. So they carry on the way its going.
3 days of it, I'm starting to worry about Chucho eating and drinking. And I'm wondering how long I can let it carry on for before I have to start thinking about splitting them up. I can't afford another cage tbh, but I don't want to see Chucho get hurt or injured in anyway. Its really worrying me.
Anyone got any ideas?

[marumba7]

Despite the warnings of the wise members here, I have two males and three females together; I know a little about dominance issues.

Homer (dominant) and Norbert (passive) fight occasionally during female heat, when Homer wants to sniff or mount Nobert, and when I put new things into the cage. Their fight looks like much slapping of the paw and then a drop kick to the middle of the other degu's belly. However, it doesn't last long and Norbert usually finds something else to keep his attention.

Perhaps your degu home is too small?

My other idea is that Chucho and Sancho cannot live together. Before we brought the ladies home (we had the two boys for two weeks before deciding they needed more friends) we choose an older male degu to put in the cage. He fought with the boys, but it looked nothing like what I just described. This older degu bit them on the backs and anywhere else he could. Homer and Norbert were terrified of him and would go no where near him.

So which do you think it is? Do you think Sancho is fighting for dominance or really looking to hurt Chucho? With Homer and Norbert's fights, I'm not worried, because shortly after Homer's ego is appeased, they cuddle atop each other, often choosing their own pile over being with the ladies.

[worthym]

I haven't a clue. Don't think their home is too small, they're in 36" by 36" by 18" John Hopewell cage, so they've got loads of room. I'm really starting to wonder if these two just cannot be together any more?
What confuses me, is they sit together for a while, until one starts sniffing around Chucho, and then he gets all defensive, then theres usually a short scrap. But its noisy and its scaring me that one of them will get injured. I'd be too upset for words if that happened. I just need to know that theres light at the end of the tunnel, that this won't go on forever...

[Sunshinemeg]

How old are your boys? a male degu reaches sexual maturity at about a year old. Until this point they will be relatively passive, but once they reach puberty they will need to establish dominance. therefore, if an adult male group smells females, they can and will fight to the death for the right to control them.

It sounds to me that Alvaro, Chucho and Sancho are deciding who is dominant. Chucho is happy to let Alvaro be the dominant degu, but Sancho has argued with this!! He now probably regrets this because Alvaro is now determined to show Sancho that he should be boss! This means repeatidly beating Sancho up until he knows that Alvaro is boss!!

it should settle down before too long actually, it sounds like they are not fighting to kill, so wounds should be minimal, but keep a close eye on them, keep sand baths fresh at all times, and plenty of food and water to distract them.

[Eamon]

I've had to seperate Gucci form the two others because they were fighting all the time, mostly Gucci and Louis Vuitton, both clearly alfa. But the twins are only just nine weeks... I don't know if I should try to introduce them again. Last time I tried they were getting along great the first few days - then the fighting began. I'm not sure if it's just because the twins are annoyed with Gucci because they think he is too friendly after being alone for a while...

[worthym]

Well, the fighting has calmed down a lot now. Far better though still not "normal". They've all suffered a few injuries, a few bite marks on all of them, but i think now everyone is pretty clear who is boss!!! They're all now pottering about as normal, whereas before Alvaro was bossing the other two so much they couldn't come out of their hiding places. Hopefully now it is sorted and won't recur. Although now we now have a new issue - i'll head to degu health for that though!

[Eamon]

Hey all, I'll use this thread because the topic is just right for my problems.

My boys: Gucci, Louis Vuitton and Dior.

Situation: Gucci is the oldest(around four months) and seem to be an alfa male. Louis Vuitton is nine weeks old and clearly alfa too. They didn't hurt each other too bad, but they fought all the time. None of them is anywhere near mature as you can tell from their age, but they kept fighting. Now I have Louis Vuitton in Gucci's original cage, which I think is way too small, and he's all alone.

Problem: Should I put Louis Vuitton back with the others and hope the fighting will die down, or should I keep him on his own? I don't know anyone else who have Degus, so I can't give him away. And I don't wanna give him to the pet shop, because there they will just sell him to someone where he'd also be alone. I try to have him out of his cage as often as I can, but he just miss his twin so much, he's always sad. I really don't wanna have to have him put down.

Opinions and ideas please!!!

[Eamon]

Look this is kinda important to me, because my place really isn't big enough for two cages.... please help...

[ra]

I think many of us are unsure of a proper response. Do you have room to house two larger cages side by side? I was thinking you could just keep him separate but keep their cages close so he could have social interaction without being able to get into fights. I am sorry Louis is so bereft of his twin and yet unable to get along with your other two. You've said Louis present cage is too small - that too could cause him to become disinterested and unhappy.

The male dominance thing is hard-wired into them by nature as a means of survival of the fitest. In nature, only the biggest and best get to procreate thus assuring the continuance of the species. The males were never meant to be housed in such close proximity to other males. That really creates a problem for us humans trying to keep them as domestic pets. I think their gregarious nature is the only thing that makes some pairings of males possible. How to tell which will get along with others is beyond me. Keeping two females is by nature a much, much easier thing to do. I wish I had some creative answer to both of your problems.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[Eamon]

Needing ideas and oppinions...

Okay, so this is what it is down to at the mo:

Gucci and Dior in big cage, Louis Vuitton in (WAY TOO) small cage.
so either I have Louis put down, which I really don't wanna have to do, or I spent a lot of money(which i don't have) buy a bigger cage, buy a girl for him and have him sterilised... I just can't buy another boy, if they don't get along...
I just don't have another option, do I? I mean, I could have him on his own, but isn't that just cruel?

[Sunshinemeg]

Need to ask you a few questions in order to work out how to solve things.

How long have you had the boys in cages together?
How did you introduce them?
How are they kept apart, can they smell/see each other.

It should be possible to bring them together, I have managed it on many occaasions and know its usually do able, but need to understand the background a bit more first.

[diet otaku]

agreed, keep in mind my new boys fought with my old boys bitterly for the first couple of months whenever they were out together, but i kept the 2 cages side-by-side and eventually they got used to each other (and to the fact that no one was leaving). one-on-one introductions helped them smooth things over with each other before being thrown in a big group together.

[Eamon]

well, Cornelia didn't have two cages, just the big cage and the tank, so she separated the top level of the big, three storage cage from the two lower levels. she had Gucci in the top and the twins in the bottom - there were shelfs and ramps so that they could sit close and smell each other - for about a week. they used the same bath sand and then she let them see each other a few times on neutral ground before putting them together. the first week was fine - a lot of humping and that dominance stuff. Gucci was just 3½ month then and now he's 5 months. then after about a week, Louis decided not to take the humping and fought back. Nelia had them together for about a week after that before she separated them, said they would sometimes bite each other... I've tried having the two meet several times, but even if they don't fight, Louis will just find a safe corner and make distress EEP, EEP's...

they can't see each other, but hear and smell each other. I don't keep them too close, as I'm afraid Louis would get stressed...

I tried having them together again tonight, but they were siriously injuring each other...

[Sunshinemeg]

I wouldnt put them together again yet, but I think it will eventually be possible. However, there are a number of stages you are going to have to go through. Firstly, they really do need to be able to see, smell and reach through the bars to touch each other. This needs to be the priority. If you have just two that will not go together, I would suggest that the most confident is kept on his own. I used this technique when Houdini would not be submissive to Dillan. When Houdini was forced to be on his own he grew much less confident, and eventually wanted company so much he was willing to let Dillan be boss. So that is an option. While they are apart you need to swap the bedding and the sand baths daily. They need continual access to sand baths, so thats one in each cage. Add a few drops of vanilla essence to each sand bath as well, as this will mask any underlying smells that they associate with an enemy.

Next you need to keep them on their basic diet. No treats. this may seem an odd step, but it is important they have nothing at all to feel threatened about from the other cage. This includes threats they may perseive of their treats!

I would also suggest that you swap over who lives where now and again, so that nobody feels they have any greater claim to territory.

you are going to have to be very very patient with this, given their age it should be no problem to bring them together, but its going to take time. Both myself and Diet Otaku can testify to this, Diet took several months, and I took nearly 2 to get them together.
Males are harder to group than females, but again its possible.

dont give up just yet, let us know how you get on with these steps, and hopefully we can try introducing them in a few weeks time!

[Eamon]

thank you so much. you know, you can just loose hope and confidence. I've put Gucci on his own, as he always want to play the boss over both twins. I'll keep you posted on further plans tomorrow...