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Post by deguconvert on Aug 6, 2017 19:25:58 GMT
I agree, Zenaida. Well said, and great advice.
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Post by misscatafer on Aug 6, 2017 21:14:37 GMT
Yup. As Zen and Emily have said, intros can take a long time unfortunately. I am at the 12 week mark now trying to group up two 1 year olds with a 4.5 year old. They all share a cage divided by double mesh, but the young ones still hate the older one and I seem to have hit a complete stalemate. The difficulties for you will be that the younger ones are now just entering puberty, and little peanut is also at this stage, meaning there will be more hormones, tantrums and fights for dominance going on within the group. The best thing you can do is take things very slowly (I rushed into mine and it has set me back I feel). So keep them apart for now, let everyone settle and in and get to used to you and their new homes, and then slowly start moving the cages closer together over the next few weeks. You can swap scents (sandbaths, bedding, substrate, toys) throughout the cages from now to get everyone smelling the same and used to each other's scents in preparation.
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Post by bouncy on Aug 6, 2017 22:03:25 GMT
Also, please bear in mind the timescales we're looking at here. Peanut hasn't been with you very long at all, and has been in his new cage for a couple of days. The pups, similarly, are in new, unfamiliar surroundings. We're not just talking cage changes, but overall environment like noises, smells, even light. Goos are a bit like luddites. They generally hate change. Perhaps give them a few more days to get used to where they are. No reason why you can't put the pups' cage within sight of peanut, possibly moving it slightly closer each day
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Post by masters02 on Aug 7, 2017 9:53:17 GMT
Now that the 2 brothers are back in their original cage (horrible thing pets at home initially sold us) everything seems to have calmed down!
The 2 cages face each other and they seem to ignore each other most of the time, other times they seem to talk to each other but much less aggressively than before (no loud squeaks)
I'll leave them like this for a little while, and then worry about what the next step is when we come to it!
Stressful 🙂
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Post by misscatafer on Aug 7, 2017 10:09:31 GMT
Glad things have calmed down for you. Yes it is stressful doing introductions, I've had a whole morning of grunting, squeals and chasing from my two little ones this morning, I just look at them and think `why can't you start accepting her??' I can't imagine them being ready for face to face intros any time soon. At least yours are still very young, so if things can calm down quickly and you get nice sounds coming from both cages towards each other you may be able to start face to faces in the nearer future.
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Post by zenaida on Aug 7, 2017 13:58:19 GMT
That's all really positive! Give it more time, and do bedding/bath swapping like mistcatfer said. But that's exactly where we want them to be right now. Try not to worry too much about the Pets at Home cage. Yes it is small, but small is better than fighting. They will get their upgrade in due time.
How far apart are the cages right now? Did you take out the mesh divider or leave it in? If you left it in, you made it double so there's a little space? Details like that will help us advise you about what the next step is when they signal that they are ready.
It is good that you are paying attention to what they are saying. Listen for warbling (google it) which means "I like you" or "I'm interested in knowing you better". That is an indication that they are ready for another small step.
The basic plan is that you watch and listen for what they think of each other. When they give positive signs for a while then you can inch them closer and closer. Have the divider up for a little while before putting them back in the same cage as Peanut (that way Peanut can get used to the smaller space before the neighbors move in). Then move them in (a big step that will probably ruffle feathers). Once that storm has calmed, then you can try supervised face to face in a neutral territory (if you have a bathtub, that is usually a great option). Once supervised visitation is going well, then options for removing the divider can be discussed.
Overall, you're doing a really good thing and have been very responsive to their needs! Introductions are one of the hardest things to do with degus.
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Post by masters02 on Aug 7, 2017 16:10:09 GMT
Thanks all for the responses and advice so far! Currently Draco / Dobby are in the pets at home cage about 2 or 3 inches away from Peanut. 90% of the time they completely ignore each other, the other 10% they seen to warble to each other but then other times is sounds more...animated? Ive taken a video so you have a reference. You guys might be able to interpret it better than me: vimeo.com/228682436 I do occasionally see Peanut teeth chattering which i guess isn't a great sign? Im not sure if its an age thing, but Draco and Dobby seem very active, using all their toys, plenty of climbing and even begging to come out on my hand when i see them. Peanut on the other hand doesn't use his large cage at all, he generally sits perched on his house or occasionally goes on his wheel. Is it likely because he is lonely?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 16:25:38 GMT
Some of its warbling then there's a fair bit of squealing. With mine that indicated excited/aggression, especially combined with teeth chattering. You may also find it's a mix of Draco and Dobby warbling at each other to reconfirm their relationship with one another, then the squeals are at peanut. That's what mine did. They're acting exactly how Pinky & Perky reacted to Poppy. As soon as they're released together Pinky & Perky tried to kill Poppy every time. I thought they'd be warbling at Poppy but I'm pretty sure in hindsight it was them warbling with eachother then squeaking at her, teeth chattering is a sign someones unhappy.
How old is peanut? Inactivity can be due to depression.. a depressed goo will sleep more generally.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 7, 2017 19:16:23 GMT
He likely is lonely. He is also in a very large cage by himself. Those combined are probably rather overwhelming to him, at least somewhat. Being new to your home, into large cage, alone . . . lots to adjust to. Hopefully he will begin to feel more and more comfortable.
I'm just wondering if when you put your other two boys into the new cage if you had transferred any of their used substrate from their current cage into the space you wanted them to use? They rely on the the smells of their urine and poo to indicate hierarchy and health and many other things. If none of those odors were available, then they would have felt like they had to re-establish all their positions again.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 20:12:52 GMT
masters02 it's great you're here looking for advice! I think if you're guys were gonna be really mean and nasty they would have done during any opportunity they've had so far. A bitten paw isn't too serious, so don't panic thinking all your degus will kill eachother! I just wanted to highlight with my example how sometimes, we do read them incorrectly. So posting videos here and asking for interpretations is a great thing to do!!
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Post by bouncy on Aug 7, 2017 20:25:02 GMT
Taking a step back initially isn't a bad thing.
Yes, pups are more active. In fact, when 1yr old Squidgy had the pups move in, he was exhausted keeping up with them! He used to sneak off to the high perches they couldn't reach, and have a kip. Often, a leg might have fallen off, but was so tired that he couldn't be bothered to pick it up again!
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Post by masters02 on Sept 3, 2017 15:46:56 GMT
So all 3 of the boys have been in bigger enclosure together now for around a month (Split by a wooden partition i put in). Initially there was a lot of squealing between Doby/Draco and Peanut through the tiny holes in the partition, but over the past few weeks its died down to mostly warbling at each other / ignoring each other.
We decided that it would be a good time to do a face to face today, so we went out and bought a large rabbit play pen to use.
Peanut went in first, then we put in Doby (the dominant one of the pair), at first they kept to themselves. However, as soon as Doby approached Peanut and started sniffing him they flew into a ball and started rolling around the floor. We split them up with gloves and also threw a towel over them and despite both being visibly shaken there was no blood or damage.
We decided that was enough for the day, and didnt want to push our luck.
The question is, where do we go from here? Do we try Draco with Peanut next? Should we let them fight some more before breaking up?
Any advice welcomed.
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Post by savvy on Sept 3, 2017 16:58:33 GMT
Going into a ball and fighting is what we call FBOD (fur ball of death) and it literally what it says, they will lock together and cause as much damage to the other degu as possible. Well done for reacting quickly and separating them.
I certainly wouldn't try Peanut and Doby again for a while, but see if Peanut has calmed down a little before you try him with Draco. Do you know who started the fight today?
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Post by masters02 on Sept 3, 2017 17:37:54 GMT
It's hard to say who started it as it all happened so quickly, but I think peanut started it. I'm sure that Doby just went in for a sniff...
From what I've read, some fighting is expected during a introduction, is this specifically the boxing? Doby and Draco box all the time and it never looks serious, almost like playing.
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Post by savvy on Sept 3, 2017 17:46:45 GMT
Boxing is perfectly normal behaviour to establish dominance, but fbod is really serious.
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Post by bouncy on Sept 3, 2017 21:18:24 GMT
Given your new friends for Peanut are pups, I might consider doing a face to face with all three together. My logic is that they are young and inexperienced. Peanut might seem less intimidating if they meet united, which may relieve some tension.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 3, 2017 23:18:45 GMT
That is a possibility! Worth a try.
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Post by masters02 on Sept 6, 2017 7:45:22 GMT
My worry with introducing all 3 was that it would be harder to break them up, although the throwing a towel over them seemed very effective.
Should we still break them up the second they start rolling around? Or should we give them a minute to 'work it out'?
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 6, 2017 15:33:50 GMT
I wouldn't expect all three to be in a ball . .. but I guess we shouldn't discount it, as degus seem to like to shock us with what they will do. If you see them go into an FBOD, you need to break it up right away. In an FBOD you cannot tell one degu from the next, they are so tightly clutched to each other. If you can still distinguish, then you can let it go a bit . . . but that is really your call.
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Post by masters02 on Sept 8, 2017 12:18:38 GMT
It's very strange to me that they flew into a ball so quickly, they have seen / talked to eachother through the gaps for 4 weeks!! I thought they would hopefully be familiar with each other.
Maybe we will try all 3 this weekend, not sure I'm feeling brave enough though!!
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