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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 17:13:20 GMT
Wow, Emily! Exhausting indeed!! I hope you have taken a good long break. Excellent information to think on, discuss and chew through. The small sizes look astonishingly small next to the many larger sizes recommended.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 27, 2017 17:14:41 GMT
The range of possible sizes is astounding. It occurs to me it would be good to put together some pros and cons for larger and smaller cages, examine some of the theories: Pro Large Spaces: pleasure of freedom of movement chance to exercise and be fit (heart, muscle health etc) Room to place lots of accessories, activities, etc Extra activity means better gut motility lowering risk of stasis (I just got this from what Em got from one of the german sites above - makes complete sense, could be important!) less pressure on social groups when they can get away from each other Cons Large Spaces: Could be more fall opportunities to be avoided Overheating from extra activity Open spaces need hiding places for secure feeling chins Harder to regulate room temp of very large spaces (patches of sunlight??) Expensive Harder to find room in home Difficult to buy/ set up. Can be difficult to clean if poorly arranged. Pros Smaller Spaces: Cheaper Take up less room in home Easier to clean Cultural norm in UK/USA means could be less criticism. Cons Smaller Spaces: mainly opposite of pros for large spaces Against the law for very small spaces. Against vet and national charity advice @darth have you seen our beginner's guide to degus? It covers similar things to your chin guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19754/beginners-guide-degu-keepingI agree with your suggestion about barriers at floor level, partly for the reason you give but also I have noticed that degus seem to dislike being at ground level, so I guess chinchillas might also feel vulnerable at floor level? I think degus tend to use a floor level 'shelf' it has a deep barrier in front so it's more like a digging level. It took me ages to think of it, because what you put isn't exactly wrong, but I think the correct phrasing for 'a positive on keeping it in' should be 'the advantage of keeping it in'. Wood is naturally antibacterial. Ventilation is always a legitimate concern with wood cages. I suppose wood gives more opportunity for moulds like mildew, but they can grow on anything once the humidity hits about 66% I think. I don't see why wood can't be disinfected. I think mite or bug infestations could be equally problematic to eradicate in wood or metal, they tend to breed in any cracks. Maybe we aren't discussing materials yet? anyone got pros and cons for mesh vs solid floor? Cleaning, bumblefoot, comfort, freedom of movement/posture etc?? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 17:28:51 GMT
Whatever we discuss I will write down formally. So I have a file where it's all collated neatly to post properly at a later date, especially sources and useful findings.
To add to the pros:
Allows more opportunities for enrichment.
Allows for closer bonding as animals won't feel confined/scared and forced into a relationship.
I don't feel the hard to find room in home/expensive are sort of legitimate. Surely people shouldn't have the animals if they don't have room for adequate housing/money? Just my two cents. I understand they are cons.. but at the end of the day animals take up space and are expensive lol!
I don't get the qualms about wooden cages either except for making sure to provide adequate ventilation.
Pros for solid floor: can use fleece which is arguably clean as it can be machine washed very regularly. No risk of bumblefoot, if trained to use a litter tray or cleaned often enough, standing in urine isn't a problem. Is not difficult to clean.
Cons for solid floor:
Droppings collect on the floor, meaning more spot cleaning.
Pros for mesh: droppings fall straight through to a pan, requires less spot cleaning, chins aren't sat in their poo (but it's hard anyway like degus), aren't sat in their wee on the base levels.
Cons: hard to clean the actual mesh, bumblefoot, usually associated with small cages, feet and toes can get trapped and pulled/broken.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 27, 2017 18:29:31 GMT
I know some people suggesting putting animals (not fish) in aquariums and tbh this is problematic because of the ventilation. Somehow people think a mesh will provide sufficient ventilation.
Bit OT here, but it just occured to me why some countries might experience health issues with even small amounts of fatty food items like nuts and seeds. If they hardly ever excersice just imagine what can go wrong when they can't burn the calories.
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Post by winic1 on Jul 27, 2017 19:44:59 GMT
 As for cage dimensions in terms of height, jumping, shelves, etc--take a look at pictures of their natural habitat. yes, it's rocky, sometimes steep, mountainsides, but they are NOT mountain goats. This is what their habitat looks like, and nowhere do you see anything that approximates a tall cage with big leaps between shelves. They live ON THE GROUND, it just happens to be rocky, uneven ground that is more easily bounced across than flat run across. Also, consideration should be given that as trapping and human development encroached on their habitat, they moved upwards into the mountains to the undisturbed places (forget where I read that, sorry), so they live at the highest elevations now by necessity, not necessarily by choice. Showing a bunch of habitat pictures, I think, makes it obvious that they need horizontal space much more than just height.   |
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 20:35:41 GMT
Thank you, Winic. This is precisely one of the things I wanted to know/see when asking if they are more like to ground squirrels or tree squirrels. I was imagining a large cage built so that there was an incline of sorts, with built in hiding spaces. I can see it in my mind but finding the right words to describe is difficult. OK, imagine cubes of incrementing size, placed next to each other so that they create a slope, but with flat surfaces, almost like steps, but wider than human steps, and with varying increases, not all exactly 5 inches. Now imagine that some of the cubes have openings in them so that there is a warren of dens in behind and underneath the surface area. Do you get what I'm thinking of? Now what if the inclined area could be all one (hopefully lightweight) piece that could be lifted like a lid so that the warrens inside could be accessed for cleaning. Lets make this . . . a generous size, say 2m X 2m X 2m. Surround the upper area with wire mesh to see in, and place peekaboo mesh in selected areas to let in fresh air and visibility in the solid lower sides. The whole base would not need to be dedicated to warrens. Maybe there would be three den type areas, and the rest could be used for storage. Anyway, I think it would be more reflective of the landscape they live on. Obviously it would take more advanced DIY skills than I have. It would be cool though!
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 21:31:23 GMT
So, OK, I drew a picture but am not having success to post it. Not a great illustration, but hopefully it would make the above more clear. How do I host a photo on facebook? Do my pictures have to be public, or friends?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 21:56:43 GMT
Nope! I posted some of the photos I rescued on the cage thread in a private album.
You have to click on share options of the uploaded photo and it's there somewhere.
I can't check because I'm on my phone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 21:57:55 GMT
That would be ace deguconvert!
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Post by winic1 on Jul 27, 2017 23:00:38 GMT
So, a synthetic scree or talus slope make of open boxes!
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 23:10:12 GMT
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 23:11:14 GMT
Kinda of . . . LOL Sorry it is on it's side though.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 27, 2017 23:13:44 GMT
Winic . . . not all open boxes, no, but a synthetic slope yes. I guess it could look like a roof with wooden tiles or shingles. Only more variety in depths maybe? I did a pretty bad job with my illustration.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 28, 2017 6:23:58 GMT
Do you know how reptile keepers make fake rocks for the terrariums?
I would love doing something like that for my animals. It's just a big project.
If you still do the bade design in wood it is possibly to apply the material used for making fake rocks directly on the ledges, and form a rock shaped environment from this. It is possible to either use chicken wire with something on it or styrofoam to make the illusion of fake rocks. It would also be possible to make cave like features this way.
You wouldn't have to worry about food bowls this way as it would be possible to actually make them a part of this.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 28, 2017 9:45:53 GMT
 If you look to the right in this picture you can see the ceramic tubes I use in the cages that help the animals cool. I've been talking about them before (the need to cool when it's hot). |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 11:47:50 GMT
Oh cool! I might be going to town today weather permitting (it's raining) so I'll go to P@H (LIVID I need degu nuggets) then go to The Range and look for some terracotta pots and tubes ☺️
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Post by randomname on Jul 28, 2017 21:45:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2017 22:27:36 GMT
Went to bloody The Range and there was 0 terracotta anything, nothing of any use at all full stop. Rude. B&Q tomorrow so hopefully will have stuff there lol. I'm working on the writeup of everything we discuss by the way.  adding it in in sections, under the charity/groups input, i put our input and thoughts, reasons why etc. then I'll do our conclusions. |
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 30, 2017 15:17:02 GMT
Terracotta pipes are really hard to find now, I have a few that were dug up from a field, somebody gave me them.
Those photos give a good impression of the 'rock hopping' thing.
I've seen quite an in-depth description of creating a rocky terrarium, it was european, probably German, it was a special type of plaster of paris type stuff. I've mentioned it on the forum a long time ago, not sure if I could find it again.
It strikes me that large full area shelves might work well with a slightly larger spacing than we would normalyl imagine and then smaller shelves and perches or boxes and cabins to created interest and surfaces between the main levels might be a good solution.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 30, 2017 15:30:34 GMT
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