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Post by moletteuk on Jul 25, 2017 11:42:54 GMT
You may have noticed the moderator statement about chinchillas in the Forum News section of the forum. Together the moderators feel it is right to say that chinchillas should not be kept in housing smaller than that which we have set out in the degu guidelines, and we also take the view that the majority of the flooring should be solid, generally on comfort and freedom of movement grounds.
I know that you guys will have lots of great information and ideas on the topic of chinchilla housing so lets talk about it...
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 25, 2017 13:08:03 GMT
If chinchillas get out, they can get into fights with chinchillas in other cages. Only thing they can get at trough the mesh is feet and mouth. Injuries to toes is not uncommon, this poses a risc of infection if the bone is exposed. Worst case scenario it can kill an animal of not treated. I would suggest having 30-50 cm gap from the floor to the bottom of the cage where the animals are, if keeping in multiple cages. Or having some kind of guard around the lower edges - this will help with the mess as well.
Avoid plastic in the cage. Some will never gnaw on it, some will gnaw with no problem, but if they do swallow it (sorry, can't spell the grown up word for this lol), it can end up killing them. Better safe than sorry.
No "climbing" or "challenging" cage as fall accidents can cause trauma and worst case death. I personally especially find this to be true if keeping more than one in a cage, as they can miscalculated a jump and fall if being chased.
They need to be able to hide. It doesn't have to be a house though. Hammocks, shelves to the back of the cage and so on, works just as well.
A place for them to cool if it gets too hot. There is a lot of solutions to this one.
Personally I would suggest at least 2 levels/ledges above ground floor.
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Post by randomname on Jul 25, 2017 13:33:25 GMT
I agree with Darth on the whole plastic thing. It's unnecessary considering the possible risks. I wouldn't recommend it for any animal except a guinea pig maybe. I guess people will make their own decisions, but as a forum it might be better to not advocate for plastic cages. Never seen a decent size plastic cage any way. We need to encourage people to replace any plastic shelving too.
Also where you place the cage is a little more tricky than with degus. I'd recommend a thermometer at the least, or a barometer if you can. If it gets humid/too warm that's going to make more difference to a chin than a degu. In some climates a dehumidifier or air conditioning unit is necessary but it others, not.
I've read various opinions on whether the cage should be in a darker corner of the room, away from direct sunlight during the day when they snooze, but also that they are used to the sun & so it's part of their natural sleep cycle & it's not beneficial to move them. I went for the middle ground, out of the direct sun, but not in a dark area. Does any one have any thought on this?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 13:49:11 GMT
I've read many places saying they keep the curtains in their chinchilla room shut 24/7, should have no direct sunlight and dimness.
Mine is personally between two degu cages, curtains of the small window is open but there's not tonnes of sunlight so it's sort of in a "lit" room, not well lit, and out of direct sunlight.
I think perhaps we should recommend out of direct sun but not in darkness?
The general consensus I've read is anything above 21 degrees Celsius (70 Fahrenheit) is risky and uncomfortable for a chinchilla. This is a tad concerning to me as I've never considered this. My rooms are all hotter than that in the summer. Fans are no good and apparently do more harm than good, AC is the only way to go. Some breeders won't sell to people who don't have AC. Being in direct sunlight a chinchilla could overheat quickly is the risk.
I agree about plastic. There's no need to have plastic cages or cages that have plastic accessories. Either replace the plastic ledges with safe wood or a popular option I've noticed is to cover them with fleece.
Tiles in shaded places and chinchillers are options to give them a cool area to lay.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 25, 2017 18:00:02 GMT
Yes, out of direct sunlight is a good thing. It can get hot in direct sunlight. Their only way of regulating bodytemperature is trough their ears. This can be a problem for them if the cage is getting too hot. They can't cool down fast enough.
As far as the temperature goes, it's a bit weird. When I started out like 20 years ago the rule of thumb said not above 30oC. Then it got down to not above 25oC with a temperature of 20-22oC as the most optimal. The bigger breeders often keep their barns at 15oC as animals seem to thrive an reproduce better temperature. On the other hand, people have seen chinchillas kept in outside enclosures further down south, with higher temperature but low humidity, and the animals didn't suffer. At some point someone tried to make an equasion to describe humidity vs temperature for chinchillas. It was interesting but didn't work out (can't remember the exact arguments) I've experienced the temperature hitting 30oC with out being able to do anything about it. When the humidity was above 60% they really did seem to suffer. However when we got down to about 60% they started moving around and the pink eard chinchillas got their normal pink colour back instead of a dark red colour (this happens when they try and cool and the blood rushes to their ears). Humidity should ideally be between 40-60% Low humidity makes temperature less of a problem. A temperature around 20oC and no higher than 25oC if possible, migt be a good guideline.
This also means they can't be kept outside in areas with high humidity. They can't be kept outside in any part of they year. It is quite visible on their fur, and in the long run there is a higher risk of heat stroke because of the humidity.
If there is an issue with high temperature and high humidity I would suggest advicing people to have something in the cage to help the animals cool down. A friend of mine made a super cool cooling house for chinchillas. Basically it's a house/box made out of tree with a top compartment seperated by wire. In the top compartment a cooling element is placed on some newspaper. It uses the principal of cold traveling down and heat traveling up. The newspaper helps with condensation. I use cearmic tubes made for drainage. They keep cool and can be sprayed with water to become even cooler. The animals can lay inside these. Others use stone or a bottle of ice they place in the cage. The benefit of them being able to go into a place to cool, is the cool air hits their ears as well, helping them cool down.
They hear about as well as we do. They can be place in a living room if people like. The noice level should be plesant for us. No yelling and screaming and no high music all the time. They do not have a problem sleeping trough normal levels of noice. They can however be an issue to keep in bedrooms as they often run around at night. Light sleepers will find it hard to sleep trough the noice they make.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2017 18:14:18 GMT
I know someone who's unit got to 27 and lost half the herd I'd personally say anywhere from 0-21 is fine. humidity where i am is usually about 60-80 due to the soil. I run aircon both in my unit, and in my rescue room in the house. whilst the rescues always fair better-due to weak fur, those in the unit struggle greatly due to good fur. some struggle more than others, at 23 I see pink ears. More dangerous than heat, is heat TOO fast. a slow rise to 23, is better than a quick rise from 15 to 23. dramatic changes! fans do nothing but blow hot air at them faster in these temperatures and can cause respiratory issues i believe. Air coolers only chill a room by 2-3 degrees and increase humidity. The rule of thumb, is combined humidity, and degrees in Fahrenheit should be no more than 150.
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Post by randomname on Jul 26, 2017 15:56:09 GMT
I know someone who's unit got to 27 and lost half the herd I'd personally say anywhere from 0-21 is fine. humidity where i am is usually about 60-80 due to the soil. I run aircon both in my unit, and in my rescue room in the house. whilst the rescues always fair better-due to weak fur, those in the unit struggle greatly due to good fur. some struggle more than others, at 23 I see pink ears. More dangerous than heat, is heat TOO fast. a slow rise to 23, is better than a quick rise from 15 to 23. dramatic changes! fans do nothing but blow hot air at them faster in these temperatures and can cause respiratory issues i believe. Air coolers only chill a room by 2-3 degrees and increase humidity. The rule of thumb, is combined humidity, and degrees in Fahrenheit should be no more than 150. That is fantastic information, thank you. The change thing is true of rabbits too - a sudden change is much more likely to negatively affect a bunny than it being used to a relatively cold or hot environment. A rabbit can thrive both indoors & out, but you cannot just change the environment, you have to very gradually acclimatise them to the temperature change. Actually maybe that's true of all mammals? It seems like it would be true of humans if you imagine it.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 17:37:08 GMT
drive.google.com/file/d/0B7MJ7FvOCmtxeGZrRHpBSWVtWHM/view?usp=drivesdkCare sheet mad for The Danish Chinchilla Association. This is based on guidelines that was agreed upon by a group of associations. Its 2 a4 pages long with pictures. It has all the basic info. This makes it easier to digest for the reader. Longer care sheets can be provided, this was more as an intro with the basic, not to put people off the info and doing something wrong. This is something we often come across in various animal groups. As far as cages goes, this has the following info: Due to humidity it is not advices to keeping chinchillas outside. A 60*60*100 cm cage (100 is hight) is preferable for 1-2 animals, bigger is better (here my English skills lack. Bigger is better is a wrong translation but the best I can come up with). The cage is fitted with at least 3 platforms. Other inventory like branches, hammocks and houses can be added. The cage should be placed out of direct sunlight and away from draft. It should be placed in such a way that the chinchilla can overlook the room and see what is going on at all times. It is best to give water in a bottle. Food bowls should either be mounted on the cage wall or be of a heavy material the animals can't easily move. A container for sand can be added to the cage either permanently or given when needed. Bedding material should consist of wood shawinga, hemp or similar. It is important to not use anything that might be toxic for chinchillas to ingest. Sooo, I wrote most of this, and I would change some if I could. Would add something about shelves placed in a way so they can never fall more than 50cm or something. This also has the benifits it can be printed and handed out easily or just printed for private use. From top to bottom the topics are: Scientific name Danish name Apperance Grown size Age expectancy Where they live in the wild (don't know how to shorten this in English) Recommended cage size and interior Special needs like temperatur or humidity Enrichment and stimulating Feeding Excersice needs Social needs Breeding, kits and neutering Typical signs if illness Legislation As mentioned above i didn't make up these topics. People with other species of animals with god knows how many years of experience agreed upon this
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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 18:14:45 GMT
Can I ask about baths? The UK groups and US groups say baths should only be once a week.
My degus have access 24/7 and that Care sheet says it's fine for chins to have 24/7 access to, is that correct?
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 18:27:19 GMT
I have it in the cages 24/7. The farmers use the sand baths as hideouts too. They do not have issues with too much sand. They do tend to poo and pee in it if kept in the cage (farmers do not experience pee. Some see this as a sign of health problems. It think this has to do with it being a hideout too and they do not usually pee in their hideouts).
Most here would say you need to give them the sand every day for 30 minutes if not kept in. Actually I do not speak openly about it when I forget to put the sand back in and they don't have sand for week or more as most think this is a big deal - haha
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 18:45:34 GMT
A positive on keeping it in: it's almost always cool compared to the surrounding environment. This means sand can help prevent heatstroke if left in the cage.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 26, 2017 19:03:02 GMT
Okay.. So you guys really need to tell me and make fun of me when my phrasing is lacking. "a positive on keeping it in" omg the fart jokes that could go with that. That's the only way for me to learn! Seriously!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 13:10:28 GMT
LOL I didn't even read it like that until you pointed it out Darth!!!
Okay so I've compiled together as much information as I can be bothered to lol, struggling to find any german websites as I don't know how to make them show up in my searches... found a few.
Here you go!!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 13:11:46 GMT
Chinchilla Guidelines on Housing
Hi all! This is a compilation of all of the housing guidelines I’ve so far rounded up. I will do this in several subheadings.
Cage Dimensions:
BLUE CROSS - The minimum cage size for a pair is around 1m x 1.5m floor space, by 1.3m tall, with shelves at different heights.
THE PET CHARITY - No sizes mentioned, accommodation should be as large as possible and be escape-proof.
PDSA - Give chinchillas an indoor enclosure or a room in your home as they are very active. Both of these are better than a large cage. Ensure that any cage is at least H2 x W2 x D1M.
SUPPORT ADOPTION FOR PETS - The minimum cage size for a pair is around 1m x 1.5m floor space, by 1.3m tall, with shelves at different heights.
RSPCA - Large/secure living environments e.g. secure room /large metal mesh cage. GERMAN ‘CHINCHILLA INFO’ WEBSITE - Realistically, each Chinchilla must have an enclosure with a floor space of 5 m² and a height of at least 1.5 m. In 2014 the Federal Ministry of Food and Agriculture published the "Opinion on minimum requirements for the keeping of mammals" : "Actual chinchillas 1 m² for a couple, for each additional animal 0,5² additional, height 1,50 m." ( Page 149, para. 15.10.1 Encampment requirements for chinchillas ). So each Chinchilla should have 0.5 m² of floor space at a height of 1.50 cm, 0.75 m³ per animal!
FACEBOOK GROUP Gruppe für fröhliche Halter von Chinchillas - The accommodation for Chinchillas can not be big enough. The recommended minimum dimensions are: - 2 Chinchillas: 2m x 0.8m x 1.2m (B, T, H) or 1.5m x 1m x 1.5m - 3-4 Chinchillas: 2m x 1m x 2m (B, T, H) 5-6 Chinchillas: 2.5m x 1m x 2m (B, T, H) A sufficiently large self-construction or wooden cage - or even more appropriate a Chinchillazimmer - including reasonable cage equipment is necessary for the mental and physical health maintenance. If there is sufficient freedom of movement, the feed taken in the digestion apparatus can be better conveyed (chinchillas have only a small agitation movement, which carries the feed slurry further), a blockage or gas formation is prevented. In addition, the overweight is counteracted and the muscles and joints are trained.
And: a sufficient cage size is important for our homechinchillas to do at least part of their species-specific movements. Therefore, one should grant his animals so much space - but at best still more. More need-oriented is a width and height of min 2m. From an altitude of 2m an intermediate day can be installed, because at low altitude it takes the animals only unnecessarily space and freedom of movement away. Apart from that, the boards, branches and partially retracted floors, which are installed in such a way that the animals can not fall deep. Chinchillas require more tread. They are not climbing! The cage thus rather in the width rather than height build. Ideal is of course much width and height!
CHINCHILLA CLUB - 2 feet by 2 feet squared is the smallest you should go for a pair of chins. The bigger the better.
ASK A BREEDER-CHINCHILLAS FACEBOOK GROUP - Each cage per chinchilla 16" x 24" x 14" high.
NOTTS NIBBLERS RODENT RESCUE - Nothing smaller than an Aventura/Liberta Explorer for 4 chinchillas.
CHINCHILLA CHRONICLES . COM - 18-24” deep x 24-36” wide x 24-36” high for 1 chinchilla.
SECOND CHANCE CHINS . COM - For one or two chins, is 30"w x 18"d x 48"h. It's modelled after a cage that is available online. We've found that cages larger than 30x24x48 offer no real advantage and have a lot of wasted space in them
NORTH STAR RESCUE - You will need a cage that provides at least six feet of cubic space per chinchilla in the same habitat.
CHINS N HEDGIES . COM - A good rule of thumb is 2x2x2 per Chinchilla.
CHINCHILLA FORUM . NET - The chinchilla cage should be sufficiently big and offer a lot of variety. As a minimum, the EU currently requires 1m x 0.5m x 1m (width x depth x height), but the cage should be at least twice as big for 2 animals.
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Cage Flooring (if information is available).
BLUECROSS - In the bottom of the cage use dustextracted bedding or shredded paper.
THE PET CHARITY - The cage should be of wire-mesh construction with a raised wire-mesh floor to prevent the coat from becoming soiled. A removable tray placed under the floor will make it easier to keep the cage clean. This can be covered with wood shavings, cat litter or newspaper.
PSDA - If it’s a wire mesh floor, ensure there are plenty of solid floored platforms and branches for chinchillas to spend time on, or their feet may develop health problems. Ensure wire mesh floors have no gaps wider than 15mm x 15mm – so their feet don’t fall through and become injured. Use wood shavings on the cage floor or beneath the wire mesh. Don’t use sawdust. It’s too dusty for their eyes and lungs.
SUPPORT ADOPTION FOR PETS - N/A
RSPCA - With mesh floors include alternative flooring e.g. solid wood. Chinchillas can damage their feet when spending long periods standing on wire mesh.
GERMAN CHINCHILLA INFO WEBSITE - In the retail trade, many types of litter are offered which are suitable for chinchillas, (From flax / Euro Lin), corn litter or even the normal wood litter (which, however, is very dusty). The enclosure must be thoroughly cleaned at least once a week. The pink spots more often. Do not use a cat litter . The Klumpstreu is possibly eaten and can clump in the stomach of the animals and lead to death. The dust from Klumpsteu can be inhaled and clogged with the pulmonary fluid, which can lead to lung problems. The normal cat litter can be toxic when consumed, because the eco-varieties are chemically treated. In addition, cat litter is unnecessary, since it does not come with a regularly cleaned cage to no odor. Do not use pellet litter! It's too hard to run. From the hard and coarse pellet litter the animals can get pain. The intersperses may also be eaten, and may then swell in the stomach and lead to lethal constipation.
FACEBOOK GROUP Gruppe für fröhliche Halter von Chinchillas - N/A
CHINCHILLA CLUB - They are housed much the same as a ferret would be, in a wire cage. Shelves are a must since they love to jump and climb. There are two basic floor choices: wire bottom and floor pan. If you choose a wire bottom then the spaces in the wire must be no larger than 1/2"x 1/2". I prefer to have the cage sit right on top of a floor pan full of pine shavings. The shavings make a nice floor for the chinchillas.
ASK A BREEDER-CHINCHILLAS FACEBOOK GROUP - N/A (Mesh).
NOTTS NIBBLERS RODENT RESCUE - Fleece is shown on their website.
CHINCHILLA CHRONICLES . COM - Wire bottom or solid both acceptable. Solid is harder to keep clean, line with hay or newspaper.
SECOND CHANCE CHINS . COM - Safe - Kiln dried pine, Aspen, Carefresh, Kaytee Softsorb. Flooring (if you are planning a raised wire floor over a dropping pan) should be 1/2"x1/2" or smaller, and the gauge needs to be larger than 16. That's going to be hard to find as hardware cloth is a fine gauge. We have used 1/2"x1" with fairly good success, but the smaller the better.
NORTH STAR RESCUE - The base of the cage should be a solid surface, no wire grates for poop to fall through, plastic base is fine.
CHINS N HEDGIES . COM - Mixed - some people prefer mesh bottoms, some prefer metal pans.
CHINCHILLA FORUM . NET - Litter is acceptable, (cannot find which), solid flooring.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 13:26:10 GMT
That was exhausting lol.
So I think we need to compile the sources we agree with in terms of cage size (if any). Discard the ones we don't like (explain why).
Some of them produce decent cage sizes, or say things like mesh floor is bad, but then some of the substrate they recommend is bad!! Ugh.
But let's start with the cage size?
If I compile it down further.. the options are:
1. PER PAIR 100cm x 150cm floor space x 130cm tall.
2. As large as possible (which surely allows for small cages if that's all people can manage).
3. H200cm x W200cm x D100cm, preferably a whole room.
4. PER PAIR 100cm x 150cm x 130cm (SAFP just copies BC word for word).
5. Large and secure.
6. Floor space of 50,000 square cm and a height of at least 150cm
7. (included in the one I got from 7, it's the Federal Ministry of Food and Agriculture's requirements) Actual chinchillas 10,000 square cm for a couple, for each additional animal 5000 square cm additional, height 150 cm.
8. 2 Chinchillas: 200cm x 80cm x 120cm (B, T, H) or 150cm x 100cm x 150cm
9. PER PAIR 61cm x 61cm
10. PER CHIN 40cm x 60cm x 35cm high.
11. Aventura/Liberta for up to 4 CHINS.
12. PER CHIN 60cm deep x 60-70cm wide x 91cm high.
13. For one or two chins, is 76cm w x 45cm d x 121cm h.
14. PER CHIN 169,901 cubic cm
15. PER CHIN 60cm x 60cm x 60cm
16. PER CHIN 100cm x 50cm x 100cm.
Those are the sizes from the 16 sources.
If we refer to them by number I think it would be easier, as I'll list them in the same order every single time. Or name, whatever is easier.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 13:28:49 GMT
Give me a min actually I'm gonna convert as many as I can into the same measurement.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 13:37:01 GMT
Done
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 27, 2017 16:12:27 GMT
What I think: 100cm wide it a good measurement. Less can work just as well but the same goes for more. So I would go with this if I were you. Depending on the height I wouldn't suggest more than 60cm deep. If it's a high cage (180+ like my big one) cleaning can be a real pain. This in turn can provide problems with hygiene. Hight is my main concern. I only saw one site mention they are not climbers (or did I miss something?), and it didn't say anything about max height they should be able to fall. Normally I would say no more than 50 cm. I do hoveder believe my cages have about 70 cm from top to bottom where they could potentially fall. This works for me but I really wouldn't recommend it.
As mentioned before if more cages in the same room contain chinchillas I would recommend at least 30cm of space from floor to the lowest level on the cage. This really should be taken into consideration when talking hight. If you agree upon 150cm high cage it would end up being 170cm at it highest. Again you might have a cleaning issue, and with skittish animals you may even have issues with getting hold of them.
Most here use wooden flooring. Some use mesh. I believe most use wood shavings. I prefer hemp as I started getting a reaction to the shavings. Don't really want my animals to use bedding I'm allergic to. Bedding is not a must though. It is possible to toilet train them. This means most pee will go I the toilet with a bedding material. Poo will go all over. As it's relatively hard I do not see it as an issue.
The rule of thumb is, if mesh is used as bottom it needs smaller holes that the mesh used for the sides.
I would always recommend building your own cage out of wood or remodeling a wardrobe into a cage. This is very common here. I am aware this is not common in practice a lot of places.
I find it easiest if the entire front can open up. Most people I know have opted for this too.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 16:20:56 GMT
I didn't include extra detail darthchinchi as we want to tackle one little bit at a time. So focusing on general size and what sort of floor first The UK and US forums have an issue with building your own out of wood, apparently due to the fact the whole cage has to be thrown away if they become sick, apparently it's very unhygienic and the chins will chew through it within days. We always recommend on here building degu cages out of wood and we've never experienced any such problems as the US/UK chin people supposedly do. I have a suspicion it's a bit of scare mongering because they all promote smaller cages - so why would anyone need to build one, kind of thing. Most websites agree with you Darth; in that height isn't important. If you want to expand your chin cage it's always recommended to extend the length of the cage.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 27, 2017 16:43:33 GMT
I've never heard of an owner who had to throw out the cage due to sickness. It is possible to desinfect the entire cage even though it is wood.
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