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Post by jackstu88 on Jul 18, 2017 14:29:43 GMT
Hello,
Me and my partner have had Degu's since April. 2x Males called Max and Finn. Is it normal for them to start fighting a month or two after getting them? They were fine to begin with when we took them out of the cage but now they seem to always fight when we take them out of the cage. When we put them back in the cage they will continue to fight so we give them a treat and then they settle down and cuddle on each other not too long after they fight. Maybe they're trying to be dominant in the area outwith the cage but they used to just explore about themselves not really taking each other on when outwith the cage, but now they fight almost every time they come out. Another area of concern is the weight.. we give them about 7g of Degu nuggets each day(MAX) and regular hay. One seems to be quite bigger than the other but when weighing them, they don't seem to be too heavy. What weight should Degu's of 6 months be? When could you class them as adults?
Thanks in advance for any comments.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2017 14:44:00 GMT
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Post by winic1 on Jul 18, 2017 15:07:27 GMT
Have you confirmed that both really are male? Is the one that is getting much bigger than the other, is that one suddenly gaining weight much faster than the other, or are they both gaining at the same steady pace? (Since they are young and still growing, they should indeed be gaining weight.)
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 18, 2017 17:23:50 GMT
Hello Jackstu88, and welcome to the forum!! Do you know what their ages were when you got them? As pet stores are more likely to have good sales with very young animals, that is often what they carry, so my assumption is that they would have been between 8 and 16 weeks of age. In that case, they are also near, or into, the stage of life we call the adolescent/young adult stage, as it lasts from roughly 5 months up to as last as 18 months of age. This stage is full of aggression and contention, as most degus are competing to some degree to be top degu. A VERY desirable position. It is not unusual for the conflict to show up in new territories, like the space used for out of cage time. Sometimes not bringing them out, of only one at a time, can diminish the aggressions. As well, having a cage that suits their needs (and numbers) is helpful for reducing/relieving the intensity of their conflict. In some it will completely eliminate, in others, reduce, and in some it is moderate at best . . . so they are probably both alpha degus. Alphas may need more room than anyone else! How do you know if your degus are Alphas? Usually after lots of observation and lots of fighting, and finally being able to discover which is the contender and which is not. The contender is the wannabe, usually. This is hard to tease out though . . . at least for us humans. Sounds difficult I know, but we really want to encourage and help you as best we can. This can be done!!!
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 20, 2017 9:54:40 GMT
Yes, fighting is fairly normal, but there are things you can do to minimise it. First thing is a really big cage and second is providing two of everything they might fight over in the cage. A good cage would have 3 levels of 100x50cm or the equivalent of that. Some degus get very territorial - again providing plenty of space might minimise this. With territorial degus we quite often seeing fighting triggered by playtime out of the cage - they are fighting for dominance over the new territory. You could try making the play space much smaller, or putting things with there scent on in there, even sprinkle some old substrate. If it gets bad then you may need to stop playtime for a while (as long as they have a big enough cage). Do check their sexes as a priority. It may just be that the dominant degu is getting more food. There is a chance you aren't feeding them enough, young degus need more food than adults, adults eat around 15g total and growing youngsters can eat up to 25g a day. Have a look at our feeding guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide We recommend feeding lots of forage such as safe meadow plants, herbs flowers, safe garden plants, tree leaves, grasses etc. You can also get a high calcium seed mix from Ratrations, or make your own. We also recommend mixing 2 or 3 brands of nuggets and until you start offering plenty of forage and seeds you should probably increase the amount of nuggets. Most degus will not overeat nuggets so you can offer plenty as long as you aren't using a muesli type mix. We tend to judge that they are full adults in size by about 1yr, but the hormonal period can last another 6 months.
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Post by jackstu88 on Jul 27, 2017 14:26:11 GMT
Hello all,
Thanks a lot for the responses on this, it is very much appreciated.
I have a 2 layer cage, purchased from Pets at Home.. Understand that the cage may be too small but they seem fine when they are in the cage. Obviously a bigger cage would be a great help. Any chance anyone could send some links for suitable sized cages? Can look into buying a new cage sometime soon but money is quite tight at the moment. I've came to the conclusion that it may be the sand batch which is causing them to fight outwith the cage. I took out the sand bath and they ran around like normal...curious of the surroundings (play space) but no fight. Only when they have a bath they fight, so it seems I've sorted that problem.
With regards to the feeding... i've only been feeding hay/nuggets. There was a batch of foliage food which I was feeding them with but that finished. What suitable foods could I feed them which would better their diet? Like...foods which I could buy in the supermarket. I'm sure they'd appreciate a change in taste as well. I read something to say that if the Degu's are getting chubby..then to cut out the hard foods all together for a while and feed only hay. Is this correct? One website says one thing then another says to continue to feed. I wouldn't say they are grossly over weight as they still run around and seem very quick, not being slowed down by the weight... Maybe they are just a normal size and I'm not used to it as they're growing so quickly. When purchased, was advised they were 8 - 9 weeks old. One Degu does seem larger than the other but not by a great deal. What would be the best way to check the sexes are definitely both male? Pets at home checked them and both appeared the same to the lady who sold us the Degu's.
Thanks a lot again for everyones comments.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 14:37:56 GMT
The only suitable cages are: www.littlepetwarehouse.co.uk/products/metal-aventura-huge-metal-rat-ferret-chinchilla-cage.htmlwww.cagesworld.co.uk/p/Liberta_2nd_Edition_Explorer_Rat%2C_Ferret_and_Chinchilla_Cage.htmm.zooplus.co.uk/shop/small_pets/hutches_cages/rat_cage/469805Degus are ground squirrels and need a lot of running room. You can leave the sandbath in the cage, degus are great at regulating when they need a bath - they know better than we do. There's a LOT of bad sources online, sounds like you've come across a few of them unfortunately. Degus shouldn't really get overweight on an appropriate diet. I wouldn't ever just feed hay. Could you please weigh them for us? It's good to weigh degus on a regular basis. And show us photos? We can age them at least approximately for you. Pet shops are notorious at getting pretty much everything wrong - from diet, to cages, even to sexing them. Try and get your degus to stand up against the cage and get a picture of their genitals or stand them on something clear like a glass dish with a few treats in - we need to see both the cone and the hole. Females will have the cone and hole very close, males have a gap. Easily mistaken though if you aren't used to it. Did you read our diet guide? Your degus will greatly appreciate being fed a high forage diet.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 27, 2017 15:44:05 GMT
It is possible to get another (or two more) PAH cages and stack them up to make a better space, this can be quite cost effective if you can pick them up second hand. You could well be right about the sand bath. Watch out for them getting territorial over other things like food, wheel etc. Ideally when you have a bigger cage you can double up on the wheel and they tend to annoy each other less when they can get further away from each other. Most of the decent food is mail order. The most important thing to add in is the forage. So that can be herb mixes like the one you bought, and there are many more available from Zooplus, Ratrations, Hansemanns or you can pick your own. You might be surprised at the range of things they can eat, herbs, meadow plants, different grasses, safe garden plants, flowers, tree leaves etc etc. Our feeding guide will take you to lots of other sticky threads about specific areas of diet deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guideDegus don't often overeat and I would not advise reducing any food until they are at least full grown (1yr or more). Youngsters are often mistakenly underfed.
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Post by jackstu88 on Jul 31, 2017 14:50:26 GMT
Hello all, Thanks again for your responses. This is hugely appreciated. I managed to take their weights at the weekend..found it hard to get them to sit on the scales long enough for an accurate reading but now can confirm 1x Degu is about 269g and the other is 302g. I've ordered some new feeds, as per the links below...to add to their diet as per your advice. Would this be good foods to add to go along with the selective nuggets? www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005M3Q1GW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 / www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005VAF20W/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1I haven't grossly underfed them since reading this, just kept it to two solid food meals a day. I will try get some photos of their genitals but it can be difficult to get them in a position to be checked. I'll get regular photos as well, so you can see if you think they look an okay size for their age. I'll also get a photo of the cage but that seems to be sorted with our new method of getting them sand baths.. there isn't really enough room to leave the sand bath in without them having even less space. It seems they are okay with the cage though, they don't seem to fight unless it is over food now..and if they do fight they cuddle up soon after. The plan for future is to get a 4 layer cage so they'll have plenty more room, just finding the funds.. Thanks a lot again folks.
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Post by moletteuk on Aug 1, 2017 12:38:15 GMT
Dandelion and nettle roots are good but the Vitakraft Menu isn't much good, it's forage in particular that is the priority to add to their diet, things like in this thread: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15657/bought-herb-leaf-flower-mixes?page=1You might get a good genital pic if you can get them to stand on a piece of mesh or in a pyrex dish or a glass kitchen shelf. Otherwise if you can get them to lean forward and down from the edge of a perch you might get a good photo from behind. Those weights are fairly high for 6 months age, they do vary in size though so you need to judge the overall size, weight and build.
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Post by jackstu88 on Aug 29, 2017 14:15:51 GMT
Hello,
Sorry for the delay in reply.
Busy times!
Cage dimensions I have are 92 L x 46 W x 61 H, looking into getting a 4 layer cage with dimensions of 79x52x140 cm 3 different platforms going up the way. Would the new cage suit them better?
I'm going to look into forage foods and add to diet, otherwise things seem to be improving and they're happy.
Still to get a photo of genitalia of each to confirm M/F.
Thanks.
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Post by savvy on Aug 29, 2017 15:05:55 GMT
Hello and a belated welcome to the forum.
The cage you have is nowhere near suitable for degus - I can tell by the size. Also the dimensions of the cage you describe wouldn't be suitable either. They need full levels, not ledges, and as has been said before, the only really suitable cages are the Aventura all metal or the Liberta 2nd edition (the links to these are on Emily's reply). Think running length, not height as degus are ground dwellers, even though they do climb, they are not that great at it and need space to run.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 29, 2017 16:45:24 GMT
I think the new cage with those dimensions would work IF you either put in four complete levels, spaced approx 35 cm apart each, or if you tipped it on it's side and put in a second full complete level, which would give you nearly 40 cm of height for each level. The CARA would be 16,432 square cm surface area for the tall four level option, and 14,560 square cm for the laying on it's side. One of my questions for this cage that you are looking at, is how accessible is the interior? Do you have tiny doors to reach through? Can the panels be modified so that you could completely open the front for building the complete levels, and for cleaning? How are you at DIY? This cage would be great IF it has all the complete levels . . . but the potential is greatly diminished if it has only ledges.
If you are looking for the benefit that comes with a larger cage, you must remember that it is the surface/running space on which they will live that is crucial, not just the empty air space within that is contained by the cage walls. When I first joined the forum years ago, I was constantly confused by the whole measurement thing. I didn't have an ah ha moment until I realized that the floor measurement, like how we measure our homes, is the number we need to work with, not the inner "cubic space" that manufacturers always give for their cages. Though that airspace is crucial if you are working with birds, it is not useful for animals that don't spend their lives in flight.
The outer dimensions are important, as, for example, a long thin strip of ledge that is 14,560 in length but only 10cm wide would be totally inappropriate for living on, LOL! Dimensions matter, but only in how they relate to the surface area available within those dimensions.
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Aug 30, 2017 10:10:04 GMT
jackstu88, just to give you a heads up that your boys were probably not 9 weeks old when you got them. PaH is... exceptionally bad at degus, in almost all aspects of their care. To give you an idea, I bought 4 female degus from them that were, the nice man swore, no more than 3 months old. Those 4 female degus were 3 boys, 1 girl, I had horrific fighting between the males because of the female's presence, and when I posted weights (similar to the weights you have) a size chart I found online reckoned them to be closer to 12 months old. PaH will tell you what sells - which is "d'awwwww baby degus", so "they're only 2 months old". We've had people on here with accidental degu pregnancies, and 2 month old degus are not 300g. Definitely doublecheck their sex, but their age only matters in that they are most likely splat in the middle of adolesence, and that causes dominance fights if the cage is too small. Where in the country are you? I might be able to sell you a modified Thickets cage (2 cages stacked) if you are in the North West and can come get it (I don't drive and postage will not be worth it.)
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Post by jackstu88 on Aug 30, 2017 14:16:58 GMT
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Post by titchycatnipsandwich on Aug 30, 2017 14:30:13 GMT
In my experience, that bar spacing might be too wide - Best, who weighs 285g, successfully escaped a playpen last week with similarly sized bar spacing. He decided he did not want to be in that space, so... He squeezed through. Now, Nyota, who's 235g, tried the same thing and got a little bit stuck, but he's generally less escape-y than Best, so maybe determination had something to do with it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2017 16:13:10 GMT
The links I sent you earlier on are the only cages we recommend, other than self builds. The cage you've linked is too small and as titchy said, the bar spacing could be an issue.
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Post by savvy on Aug 30, 2017 17:04:38 GMT
I've just checked on the link to the Little Friends cage in your post and the description does say that it is NOT suitable for female rats are anything smaller - degus are considerably smaller than female rats.
It's not just the bar spacing thats an issue here, it looks like it has plastic trays and ladders. These would be destroyed by degus and if any plastic fragments are swallowed, it could be dangerous.
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Post by misscatafer on Aug 30, 2017 18:39:42 GMT
I have this cage, never had an issue with bar spacing, but overall the cage is too narrow and it has plastic shelving which will need to be replaced with time. If you are set on this cage though you can buy two of them, put them together to make a more than big enough living space and then modify the shelving and plastic bottom to make it safe.
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Post by deguconvert on Aug 30, 2017 18:44:57 GMT
I looked at the link as well, and was going to comment on the plastics contained in it. I had not realized the bar spacing, and that is a concern as well. Very likely your degus would easily find their way out.
Cages are a crucial part of your degus habitat. We are not trying to ride you or give you grief. I truly hope we are not creating frustration. Many of us . . . probably the vast majority of all who post . . . have come home with cages too small, made changes, discovered that more changes were needed, and after anywhere from 1-4 modifications later we finally have something that works well. We do have members that came on to discover what was needed before making the degu plunge and through their advance planning, have had cages that are very suitable from the get go, but they are in the minority. And all of us who have built our own cages will tell you that it is addicting. LOL! We want to help you get something that will do what is needed, so that you don't waste any money if at all possible.
If you are determined to have this cage you will need to heavily modify it in order to make it safe and to appropriately contain your goos. So you would have to wrap the exterior with mesh wire, not insect mesh as that can be chewed through easier than cotton, but mesh with openings about 1 cm. You will need to remove the plastic levels and make your own surfaces, probably wooden trays if you are wanting to control the substrate you use and you may want to line the wood with ceramic tiles or with vinyl flooring to prevent the wood from becoming smelly from urine. Four levels will be a generous amount of surface space for two, but three levels will be just enough for two. These levels don't have to be wooden . . . you may well be an accomplished DIYer and have some excellent ideas of how to make three full levels that doesn't involved wood. In which case, go for it!
AHHHH! Misscatafer has excellent observations, and it helps that she has the cage to comment on it. I must say I really like her suggestion of doubling it up! I've seen this cage doubled, and it is AWESOME!!
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