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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 16:46:42 GMT
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 22, 2017 18:05:38 GMT
I just don't know what to say...
We have this saying "against idiocy even the Gods are fighting a lost cause"
I do get what se is saying, it's just wrong. And she says there's done autopsies on every dead animal. Okay, so I just do not believe this. Might be doing it themselves, that's just not proof of anything is it, unless they have the education to know what they are looking at/for.
Fun how there's a "massive difference in age lived" but no reference to this statement.
Might be things like this that makes them the wild animals and domesticated ones are different species (or "not the same animal" as they put it) Bloat and gi statis isn't an issue in our animals either.
Doesn't help at all. It's just what they say against what others say. No proof either way
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 19:07:50 GMT
"It's actually a requirement in the usa to have ALL animals autopsied... either by oneself of if in doubt a vet and have a cause of death on the reigister, or you are banned from the organisation!"
Just to explain the autopsy thing.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 22, 2017 19:15:50 GMT
Okay... So they so this themselves. Realistically they miss a lot of issues. I've gotten a lot of animals autopsied to try and figure out the cause of death and people really need a lab to find all the issues.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2017 19:22:59 GMT
Better than no autopsy at all though? X
My chin, his sister died suddenly at 2 and a half. They didn't try to find out why..
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 22, 2017 19:58:53 GMT
Agreed. If I don't know what kills my animals I always get an autopsy. I do not believe autopsy it the only way to be sure of a cause of death. Like my one girl I had to put down. I noticed her one foot looked swolen and had a vet check her. She had edema and they found out her organs were shutting down. No need for autopsy on her. We knew the cause, even though this is rare in chinchillas. She was always a bit off compared to a normal chinchilla. Had issues from the day she was born.
One thing though. As I do see a point in some of what she is saying, there are problems with her statements in regard to wild diet. Anyhow, the study in what they prefer made me think... It sounds like a good study, but I'm kinda missing what type of animals it was made on? (or is this stated in the article on the site?). If they tried it out on animals who weren't used to fresh they will get a wrong result as it takes some time for them to get used to. A chinchilla only living of off pellets and hay needs a period to get used to a varied diet. This is me talking from experience. They don't just start eating when offered. It's a slow process. When they are used to variation they will sniff and try out treats. Animals that are not used to treats wont even take treats when offered.
Same with cages actually. You can't just take a chinchilla from a small cage and place it in a large cage. It will freak out. It takes a while for them to get used to more space. It can stress them enough to make them start furbiting.
She does have some points I guess. I'm just not into the "every one here does it, so it must be right" way of thinking. I still believe this is a perfectly fine way of feeding, but it is not for everyone. If people don't feel it's the right way. Then by all means, don't do it. There's a lot of this kind of thinking in the international community... That is the issue imo. Nobody dares ask questions or question the learnings as they will get shunned from the community.
I just notice, when I look at us and UK animals, they list a lot of more or less common illnesses I've never heard of in the Scandinavian community.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 8:03:01 GMT
Hey there. First the article was made on studying chinchilla. Secondly, I do not fear questions. I'm open to others ideas or I wouldn't have bothered replying in the first place. But in turn I ask where is your scientific evidance beyond your own experiences to support claims of feeding fresh being benificial? Infact it seems YOU do it because everyone else in your country does it having read this thread and several others. I would actually enjoy reading it to either learn this opinion. I would also take no heed of certain chin groups who avidly ban breeders and those who do try and learn. There are over 30 different groups of chinchilla on facebook. Yes things can be missed on autopsy, but many do indeed study the anatomy and have confrences on such to aid learning this. If theres no clear necropsy result the deceased is frozen and studied elsewhere. Sent off for culturing ect.
I have many dealings with chins who have been fed fresh, and I simply cannot support it. I personally when I was new to chins fed fresh which led to terrible resukts for months and months. If you look at guinea pigs for example who require a cup of fresh vegtables a day, if you provide vegtables too high in moisture content, or acidity, they will struggle digesting, have terrible run. I'm rather disapointed to be pointed here to find so much slagging off... saying "we" have no evidance and yet I have seen none of your evidance to support your theory. That is not how a debate works.
Dried forage is common and can be benificial if the forage is of sufficient fiber and vitimins. I personally offer dried apple leaves, basil, parsley, pepermint-all dried. They are treats though! And make up less than 5% of their diet, either included in hay, or taken direct from the hand. Avoid wood with stones like cherries and plum and use woods with a seed and their bark and wood-boiled and baked simply to remove moisture for storage and their guts, and paracites. Also yeh-you don't HAVE to, but "recomended".
As for ailments found in uk and usa chinchilla, you will also find on a healthy diet and good genetics the only ailments are those associated with end of life. We do experience people alowing predetor and prey to mix, thus leading to pasturella.
In regards to another post, you will also find here in the uk the "multicolour breeding" is highly frowned upon, and to strengthen both fur and colour we breed back to pure standards with no recessives regardless of what a pet owner desires in terms of colour for a pet. But unlike europe shows, we do not judge ears, tails ect. We aim for a healthy sizes set by breed conformity. Here we also do not pelt unlike the usa. When you talk to ranchers of 2000+ animals who live and breathe them and if something benefited them-they'd do it! And fresh foods has been trialed and errored by ranchers personally. But not in the public domaine unless you ask or go to their lectures. I have seen chinchilla seizure off one blueberry... 😕 Im not saying neither I am right, nor you are right. But alot of what you have said has come across as rude darthchini and hipocritical.
I also apologise for my spelling. I have writing issues and try my best to make it eligable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 8:37:27 GMT
Thanks for responding @gizmosisi it's great to have someone who feeds an alternative *more common* way! We are really lacking in members on the chin front so having someone like yourself comment is amazing!
Darth, I'd actually love to read the information and papers where you get your feeding techniques. I've been reading the ones @gizmosisi sent me, would be great to read the other end of the spectrum. So we had resources we could share for evidence to both ways of feeding. We aren't heavily chin based here, so I think until we make a feeding guide that's been discussed, I think sharing links for people like we are already doing would be most helpful.
Pasturella is most commonly caught from pet rabbits isn't it? Aren't like 80% carriers?
What pellets do you use in your country darth? Perhaps they have different nutrients to UK ones? I believe Science Selective is the best in the UK so perhaps comparing that to whatever you use would be useful?
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 23, 2017 8:53:58 GMT
I'm not trying to be rude and sorry if it came across as such. I'm just tired of not being able to have a conversation with out being told it is killing animals with nothing to back it.
Where on earth do you get the idea alle Europeans only breed for the colour and ear and tail is judged in shows? That's simply not true. People breed back to pure standards all the time, to try and maintain quality. Ear and tail is not something people judge. Not in the European countries I know about anyhow. Also we do not breed on animals with tooth problems.
In 20 years I haven't once experienced the type of problems you describe. Neither has others I have spoken to who feed fresh.
As for wild diet, I have been looking into this and reading up on it mainly trough Save the Wild Chinchillas. When looking at how little is known about where they get their source of water from, it just doesn't make any sense to say someone knows for a fact how they get their nutrients.
My two cents on breeders with a lot of animals, it is expensive to feed a more varied diet. This is not a bad thing. If the animals thrive on pellets and hay, well, by all means. My animals thrive on this fresh stuff. I know a lot of people who are seeing the same. My animals die because of old age too. As I mentioned, I know this because I always know why my animals die. If I don't know, I get them autopsied.
As for stone fruit this has nothing to do with chinchillas. Nothing at all. In most rodent communities it is known stonefruit tree is something to avoid. I don't personally use it, but I do see a movement where people start giving it and statements about it not being issue branches. I can't find evidence either way so I just avoid it.
My personal experience also in English and American forums is, if someone says "what about this, we are doing this and it works for us" the person will get slaughtered. I sometimes ask breeders directly and sometime get an answer. But seriously, why can't we speak openly about this? This is the issue imo. You get offended by my way of talking about issues, and I am truly sorry about that. This is just because I'm so used to hearing the most idiotic arguments, with no backing what so ever, and if I actually back my statements, I'm just an idiot who doesn't know anything.
And I actually feel you are doing what you say I'm doing. So people where who try out a different died, who has a lot of animals too, their findings are not relevant?
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 23, 2017 9:06:41 GMT
Atm I'm using Timas pellets as a mine seem to thrive on them. I just had them on a farmer pellet but didn't work as well. When looking at our pellet selection most seem to contain about the same. People feed a lot of different things pellet wise, depending on the number of animals they have. Tbh I mostly go off what others experience and then I try and read up on wild diet and I research about their digestive track. I do have some papers somewhere and I will try and find them, this is not to avoid, I really want to share, I'm just so messy when it comes to online info and saving it properly. Normally when in doubt I will go to some form of expert on the subject here either vet or biologist. Not really thinking clear here. Feel so bad for offending you @gizmosis wasn't my intention at all
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 9:40:36 GMT
"My light grey guy therfore carries some recessive genes. The recessive genes has a tendency to lighten the greys. I am not that into getting recessives into my herd as I do not intend to breed recessive. It's actually a big annoyance of mine that I have to have these recessives in order to get the light colour I want. " That is not a pure standard then if it carries recessives, in some country the lack of PURE standards is silly due to the want of multi colour chins, whereas we aim for no more than 2 different gene mutations together to keep the fur strength up. I DO know you also judge on the pelt, but it is also now a favor to not have pear shaped and have small ears. this is irrelevant if it is not judged on such things.
If it works for them, fine, but I do know folk, myself included who have had issues with fresh (NOT dried) "Puya forms a huge part of their diet right through the year. It is also the main water source for wild chinchillas" Taken from chinchilla magics searching in diet. "Interestingly enough, where they eat Puva for water and dig out roots, they will prefer dry leaves to wet ones. " chinchilla magic deduced it was not the moisture but the acidity, and other content in most fruit and vegetables that cause issues. You cannot know for exacts where they get their food, only the fecal sample studies and such. most is based on trail and error of the original ranchers in america (Mr chapman) As with any breeding animal you try and minimise costs, but, you do not sacrifice something they need to thrive and live long lives. Thus supplements like alfalfa are given. If doing something, or not doing something can prevent a vets bill for a herd-I, we, they do it!
I refer to the strone fruit due to another part of the forum stating the safety of such things as apricot, "contain amygdalin, which breaks down into hydrogen cyanide when ingested" yet I cannot find the info on the branches specifically, but this is also a known issue of some types of willow also.
I'm not offended by WHAT you say, but the way you have put this across as if anyone who speaks against you is an idiot?! Maybe i have assumed or misread, but it felt that way.
It should also be noted, besides moisture the acidity of certain fruits and vegtables are of issue. Aswell as simple things like the way they ferment-for example when you cut grass with a mower, it ferments unlike when you cut it with a sharp blade. This is an issue for rabbits and guinea pigs. But it also relates to how certain vegetables ferment. When sugar should only be 4% of their diet and most fruit and vegetables contain ALOT more than this which overall makes them too high in sugar diets.
You get slaughtered, because frankly folk are a little bit bored and sick of talking over it. It has been debated for many many years, and the conclusion here came to this for my country, and to what you do for your country. The lack of new findings since then, or infact any scientific evidence beyond personal experiences of breeders and ranchers, which disputed and chewed up on both sides. Both those who feed one way are relevant, but just as relevant as those who feed my way, yet have issues when faced with green fresh matter, and death from GI statis.
If you could find that papers that would be great as I would love to have a read! When in doubt, I refer to my friends who are both breeders and vet techs, who are of valuable resource. It is not just diet that is unknown with chinchillas, they have been domesticated only a century, they have adapted only minimally to our modern world, and our different ways of feeding. essentially they are the same as the 13 animals that were originally taken down from the mountain. And due to them being near extinct in the andees, and now in only one part, we will always struggle getting actuate information. But you always have to bare in mind they live 15,000 feet up a mountain, and last time i went up a mountain there were certainly no fruit, vegetables, or anything beyond bracken, harsh dry grasses. Not even trees! Sure we do not have the resources to fly in food from the andees but we can replicate this!
There are folk who feed ONLY hay. Are they wrong?!
It is like being presented with a totally new species, and all you know is they are hind gut ferments. Do you feed them like guinea pigs full of vegetables in their diet and leafy greens? or do you feed them like cows! who thrive on a bland diet of hay and grass and minimum corns ect? Until you find the science behind it, you will only ever be faced with "well I did this and it was fine." and "well everyone else does it." And then changing the way the world thinks from what it has already assumed.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 23, 2017 10:17:16 GMT
Who on earth said my standard was a pure standard? I never stated he was a pure, did I? To be honest i feel you are misreading whah Im writing on purpose. Where did I ever say feeding on Pellet or hay is an issue? I've never said that. People do what works for them, and I never said this was an issue. Not once. I've never said going green is the only thing. Not one time.
As I read it, we basically have the same thoughts. It is so nice to hear someone who got they are a new species in the domesticated world, and do not think they have changed into some near new species. Fact is there so much we do not know, and most studies come from owners.
I don't really care if I change anything. My issue has always been when asking questions about an alternative way of doing things, people get offensive. You are honestly the first person I've ever come across who reasons. Atm I'm met with a lot of studies into horses and people saying these studies can be used directly om chins too as chins and horses are alike in both digestion and social behaviour.
I do agree with replicating. But there are fruits. Cacti and sukulents grow. A lot of desert type plants have a lot of water in their roots. Older studies also show they would take insects and birds eggs if they came across any. They eat flowers and seeds as well.
I never give fresh shoots for example as they are relatively low in fiber with a high content of water. Normally I would recommend people not feeding the fruit og veggie but giving the leaf, stem, top or branch instead. I would hovever recommend feeding the fresh fruit to feeding the dried version any day because of the change in the sugar in the drying process.
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Post by bouncy on Jul 23, 2017 10:55:09 GMT
Hi @gizmosisi, and welcome to the forum! It's great to have another knowledgeable chin keeper on here. From the perspective of some of us, we're predominantly degu owners. It's a newer to the pet trade, and there isn't a lot out there for us, either. We've taken some short cuts, based on research on other similar species. The majority of keepers do feed a pellet and hay diet, but the German keepers innovated replication of a more natural environment and feeding. Diet is predominantly dried, but we do feed elements of fresh. We have all seen happier and healthier goos as a result. There hasn't been much research on goos either, although alzheimers is a key area now, but we base the success on the health and wellbeing of our fluff balls. When it comes to chins, we've also started to look at the German resources. I've been translating some of this stuff. Whilst degu owners have been happy to have a healthy debate with feed, we've come across what can only be described as aggressiveness from chin groups, but no one has been able to support their statements. Instead, they block or ban us. darthchinchi has had this reaction repeatedly, so is a little defensive, but would love a good discussion 😀
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Post by randomname on Jul 23, 2017 11:28:45 GMT
i came off facebook because of those groups bouncy is similar in some rabbit, degu or guinea pig groups as well, but in the chin groups it's extra aggressive & I've seen them literally go after people (doxx them!) for asking questions. Literally track them down IRL & give the RSPCA a call - no joke. The poster only asked something about giving something (can't remember what) she didn't say she was going to feed it. Think she was only around 18 as well which made it worse. Not all groups are like that obviously, but all the ones I found were sadly. I can totally see where Darth is coming from with that even though we're world apart in other areas we totally agree on this. Maybe that's why gizmosisi feels Darth's posts have an attitude? (my words, not gizmosisi's - don't want to start any thing lol) I also think people miss the fact that Darth is not advocating anyone else do what she's doing regarding feed. I have pointed this out a few times to various people. As someone who really has no expertise in chins but wants to explore & learn, it's very helpful to have lots of differing viewpoints. I love gizmosisi's message to Emily, it really explains that viewpoint excellently. I'd love to hear more & see lots of evidence & links, pictures (of chins, obvs) & polite debate. I think we're all united in wanting to do the best by our furry friends, & weirdly, Darth & gizmosisi have loads more in common with each other than they do with me, so if we can get past this, I think it'll be great to have two such knowledgeable forum members to learn from.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 23, 2017 12:08:17 GMT
I do have a tendency to be bitcy... I'm working on it. I know it's a problem. I so believe both sides should be herd. It's good to get info. I just don't get the personal attacks. This bucks me. And the citstions out of context. That makes me feel so awful I don't want to continue this debate. I said I was sorry and I truly ment it. I feel so awful. So I really don't get why someone would try and twist my words.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 23, 2017 12:09:23 GMT
And I can't correct my horrible spelling errors. Sorry
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 13:00:59 GMT
I think it is partly the language barrier and the way I read things, So for that I have to apologise. Ultimately if you have been faced with hard "just don't do it" without some reasoning-regardless of actual evidence, then you will of course feel trod down upon due to this. A very similar forum, chins and hedgies if full of information but is very much uk and usa based.
What I meant was, in a place where people do not breed standard to standard and whole herd is based on this-no recessives, it is hard to strengthen a gene pool and fur. its just the way a country or organisation does things. and makes a pedigree worthless if X amount of generations ago there was a say, saphire in the lines-but not on a 5 generation pedigree.
As for people feeding pellets and hay, it was an open ended question, as in, "some only feed hay. are they wrong?" some would say yes, some would say no! I'm not putting words in your mouth only opening a wider debate to how it really does differ. i have also seen folk who offer NO hay, only pellets! Are they wrong? (once again, open ended question to everyones own opinions, not specifially aimed at you! )
I too have seen this randomname, and frankly-its unnecessary. if the admin of the group do not shut it down, or worse, participate in this! I have also seen this on rat groups, and all species. so its not chinchilla specific groups. I personally find the betta, and guinea pig groups the worst for this. What you also have to remember with groups, teaching new folks to the species don't want a debate, they want to know how to safely care for their animals, and debate only further confuses them. Thus some groups take a very hard stance on it hence "my way or the highway" you also have to remember those of us in most the facebook groups have seen countless incidents of dogs killing chinchilla, unsuitable cages, ect ect. this means we advise against cats and dogs, and remove photos showing this. Does it mean YOU cannot? no, it means you think about the consequences and make your own mind up, but we do not alow it to be portrayed as cute or ok, because others will try and replicate it when it is super dangerous even with the best dogs-one paw the wrong way... You will notice the "no playtime at all" stance in some groups. WHY? because some are sick of seeing "it bit an electric chord" or "i stood on it" -weekly occurrence! Whereas others are "you must give playtime or you are an evil owner" you either accept the group and its rules and make your own mind up, or leave and carry on with life. I have also seen some shocking conditions folk keep their animals in, sometimes pointing towards help, is the best. some do need reporting-but I know how shocking the rspca are. Its far easier to offer help. either in a rescue capacity or how to do things more cost effective or easy.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 23, 2017 14:59:48 GMT
Thank you Gizmosisi for showing up and joining in the discussion, I can imagine how high emotions must be running for you and darthchinchi at the moment so I want to thank both of you for remaining calm and polite.
I think open discussion is the way forward, however challenging that might be. As Bouncy says, this has for many years been mainly a degu forum and the moderators have very little chinchilla experience, which puts us in a tricky position. The forum has been through a forage revolution for degus over the last few years so we do have some experience of the difficulties that new ideas can present, but in the end the vast majority of members have found introducing more forage to the degu diet to be an overwhelmingly positive thing.
I think with chinchilla diets we are at a stage where it would be valuable for people to be able to discuss their experiences and reasoning openly. Opportunities for this seem to be lacking. I will admit that due to our positive experiences with forage for degus and also other small animal hind gut fermenters, this has left us with a positive bias towards forage. The moderators and Darthchinchi have all been trying to keep the discussion either related to inferences from other species or based on sharing what they are doing personally with chinchillas, I think everyone has been careful to try not to give recommendations, this has certainly been the intention.
I do wonder if there is some misunderstanding about the focus of the types of foods under discussion for introduction and the motivation behind it. I can say that my own interest is mainly in forage plants, and for degus at least I don't think that vegetables have an important place in the diet, I use them for treats only. The motivation is to increase mental enrichment and in the face of increasing incidence of disease, in particular dental disease, we are looking for ways to fight this. It seems logical to me and many of the keepers in Germany to look to diet and in particular wild diets for inspiration. Obviously access to and even information about wild diets is difficult, so there is a problem in working out a way to come up with something realistically similar but achievable.
The vast majority of degu keepers on the forum focus on dried forage. Firstly becuase it is easier to buy and to store, and secondly because many if not most of us find that our degus prefer dried forage to fresh. I have always found this an interesting phenomenon. It seems to me that dried forage is potentially a place where all sides could agree there may be potentially significant benefits with minimal risk. A mix of carefully chosen plant species adds interest to the life of a captive animal and theoretically provides a better balance of minerals. The species appropriate diet devised by Degus International Forum looked at mineral content of 30 or so common species and worked out that 10 randomly selected species would end up with a calcium content of approx 1% and calcium to phosphorus ratio of approx 2:1 which is thought to be appropriate for small mammals. Grasses generally have a much lower calcium content, approx 0.4%, grasses do have a particularly high silica content which is good for abrasion, though. It is my opinion that the vet community is starting to look for reasons for the rate of dental disease in small pets other than just putting it down to bad breeding, and diet is coming under a great deal of scrutiny, with reliance on pet food manufacturer formulations being seriously questioned (see the rabbit 'world' in partucular).
Anecdotal evidence in Germany presents further potential benefits for the feeding of fresh fodder, Degupedia forum are particular advocates for this and they discuss in depth personal experiences of this, and they have come to the conclusion that fresh forage seems to improve dental disease. It is unclear exactly why this is, but there are theories. Basically when you remove water from all the plant cells, you change the chemical structure and this changes the way the teeth abrade on the plant. Another thing is that drying removes the vast majority of the vitamin content. Also the mineral content of fresh plants seems to be easier and safer for small mammals to absorb. I understand that the high rate of kidney stones in rabbits is no longer thought to be due to calcium content in the diet being too high, rather that not enough water is being taken in with the calcium to expel the excess efficiently.
I don't have any evidence for this, but I think it strikes a chord with many of us that there could be an issue with gut flora in introducing fresh forage, meaning that perhaps problems have occured due to being introduced too rapidly. Another possible issue could be fresh forage not being fresh enough and harbouring more dangerous bacteria that an animal would need an even more robust gut flora to deal with.
I can also say from the degu keeper viewpoint that in years gone by many of us were told that fresh forage would cause bloat and be dangerous, but in my 7yrs on the forum I can only think of two cases of bloat caused by food, so we are inclined not to take this very seriously. On Degus International forum they encouraged people to transfer from pellets and hay to forage and seeds only in the space of a couple of weeks or even overnight, and although not a member I don't recall hearing about difficulties. Perhaps we are dismissing the risk of new foods and fresh foods too quickly based on degu experience and things are different for chinchillas, I don't have the experience to say.
I hope this serves to explain the point of view of the core members of this forum. We are aware that we are basing most of this on degus and other small animal pet species and the weakness this potentially injects into the logic. For this reason we are trying to keep open minds and very much welcome any reasoned discussion of chinchilla diets in particular.
At the end of the day we all have to feed our pets something and there are drawbacks to every diet, and emotions are prone to runing high because we all want to do the best for our pets and it is very distressing when something goes wrong. Scientific studies are few and far between and therefore open, calm discussion of personal experience has an important role to play.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2017 22:12:55 GMT
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 24, 2017 5:22:45 GMT
I've shared this on here too emily
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