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Post by darthchinchi on Jun 29, 2017 15:31:52 GMT
I've been feeding fresh for some years know. Not all the time and mostly bamboo and herbs I could grow indoor. Last year we moved into a house with a larger garden. My plan for the garden is to make it consist of mostly edible plants for either us or the chinchillas (and grass for the kids to play on ). I started upping their dosis of fresh greens this summer, and it's been all good this far. Actually I've noticed their poops looking healthier than they used to. Recently I upped their rations again, and there is a smaller issue with poop. The funny thing is it looks kind of like they do not get enough to eat. It's nothing I'm worried about at the moment. We've had these tummy spells before. As of now I don't know what causes it, it could be the greens but it could just as well be an issue with the weather as it's quite humid at the moment. Chinchillas do have an issue with heat. However my experience with heat and humidity vs chinchillas, is that humidity is far worse than heat. Lower humidity lets them tolerate heat a lot better where high humidity can give them problems with the heat around 20-22 oC. When the heat and/or humidity is getting to them they sleep as much as possible and this is why I think it might have a negative impact on their digestion system as they do not eat as regularily as they would otherwise. I've cut back on the greens and are giving them rasins to help with their tummies. I am thinking about getting either zoolac or fibreplex just to help boost their intestines. I'm not the best at slow introductions. I try it out, but not really in the small ammounts most reccomend when trying out new food items. So first day I will give a little bit, and after a couple of days I tend to just give what I feel like. I wouldn't reccomend others do the same, but it works for me. If people know their animals well I guess this is an okay way to feed, as you pick up on the little things quite fast. Like with the poop I mentioned, but all my animals behave normally and eat normally. The shy animals actually seem more relaxed around me after I upped the fresh items now I think about it. When I say greens, I'm thinking forage primarily from my garden or my parents.
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Post by randomname on Jun 30, 2017 8:30:37 GMT
I love that you're sharing your adventures with us Darthchinchi, always enjoy your 'photos & posts. My personal opinion is that chinchilla dietary advice is where rabbit nutrition was 20 years ago. Obviously with rabbits being the UK's 3rd most kept pet, the funding for dietary research has been given priority over other herbivores such as degu, chins or guinea pigs. Degu & guinea pig advice is slowly changing at the moment - the same general advice that has transformed the rabbit world (i.e less pellets, no muesli, more forage, around 80-90% hay & lots & lots of variety) I am sure that the chinchilla diet advice will go the same way. The broad advice is proven to radically improve dental issues & longevity in all species. That said, I am THE most cautious person with my guys so I am not quite as adventurous as you I tend to take a middle path. I feed a bowl of dried forage a day. Pretty much what the degus get, but less. We've tried all sorts - grain grass like spelt & oats, flowers, herbs, corn silk, thistle, nettle, sticks of apple, willow, roots like mallow, dandelion & nettle. They get a mix of 4 kinds a day, about a cat bowl full for 2. They get jutst as excited about the forage bowl as the nugget bowl now. They ADORE rose petals, so I replaced their treats with them. They didn't eat hay when I got them so it's been a very slow introduction to plants over 8 months. I mix the forage with hay & they now eat hay. I also see a big improvement in their poops, but most importantly I don't worry about their dental health so much now they eat lots of chewy plants. I don't feed nuts, seeds, dried fruit or fresh stuff. They don't get the usual 'recommendations' like dried raisins or apricots, human breakfast cereal or treats the pet shops sell. All that stuff is poison as far as I'm concerned. They ignore fresh stuff like carrot, apple or herbs. One eats a little fresh mint, but that's it. I am always looking for new studies or information regarding chinchilla diets so I am always interested in your posts. I don't know that I would do what you're doing without more empirical information, but I certainly don't know enough to be able to say you shouldn't do it. I assume you have a good vet available if there is a problem & that you are checking if the plants you post are safe for degu (& would therefore be likely safe for chins too) I would maybe go a little slower, if you can see you're not introducing things slowly then you probably need to slow down. However the variety they're getting is probably going to mitigate that somewhat. I love how this forum is a safe place to discuss these things without getting shot down (sometimes!) There are very few people left who own rabbits that have not taken on board the 'new' rabbit diet/housing advice, but I remember the battles on Facebook about it. It took 10 years to turn the tide so that most people have heard the good advice before the bad. The bad cages, food, treats etc are still out there, so the battle's not over yet. The degu revolution is in it's early years, but in 10 years time I hope everyone understands they need big cages & lots of forage/seeds. The chin revolution is still in the planning stages unfortunately I think. There are so few of us it's taking longer. Maybe this thread can be the start of it? If a breeder & a vegan abolitionist can join hands there's no reason others can't Viva la revolución!!
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Post by darthchinchi on Jun 30, 2017 10:27:04 GMT
I mentioned this in an other post. Here what in doing really isn't uncommon. I do agree that slow intro is the way to go. Before the green wave I have been feeding a mixed diet as I do not believe in the thought that a pellet based feed is the correct way to feed. It is the easiest though and if you are new in the game, pellets are the best in my opinion. It is important that people are able to see the signs in their animals, if something is up. Most weigh their chinchillas on a regular basis, and this is a great way to keep track of the healt. I just tend to pick up on small things in their behaviour and see problems just as quickly as I wood if I started weighing. Did to the weight thing, I just found what I'm doing now is just as effective.
No, I don't really have a vet on hand. Most don't know a lot about chinchillas. Even those with animals at home rarely know that much. Did find one local one though, who has some experience and sounded very knowledgeable. First time in a long while I didn't loose an animal I couldn't figure out. Normally I have to know what's wrong if I want a positive experience. This is not on the vets. It's the system. Had this girl who I had tested for all sorta of things. My initial gut feeling was to give her some antibiotics, but vets didn't want to as they could not pinpoint the problem. I actually went to one of the most knowledgeable vets in regards to rodents, here in Denmark. I ended up loosing her, and it turned out she had an infection in her intestines. Bloodwork, urinsample and poo sample didn't help locate the problem. Worst thing was, I prefer to get an autopsy done to clarify the problem, and NOBODY will learn from this. Nobody is finding this interesting. The only one that got something out of this was me.
Same issue. Not that many keepers so not that interesting to look into. As for food, as long as chinchillas mainly live with big breeders, fur farmers or show breeders, I do not believe the vast majority will be likely to go from pellets to a mixed diet. Too many animals to keep an eye on and too expensive.
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 30, 2017 12:22:56 GMT
How accepted would you guys say that dried forage in in the chin community, the humans, I mean?
Do you find that chins seem to accept dried forage more readily than fresh?
Have you noticed chins doing their own safety testing procedure on new plants, similar to how some degu keepers see (eg myself and ntg have found this quite noticable)? So they sniff and have a tiny nibble the first day and wait until the next day or longer to eat more? Also do they have strong preferences, so some things they will usually eat all of it (once they have become familiar) and others they barely nibble?
Is there a theory how raisin could settle a chin stomach? I can't really think of anything, I would have thought roughage would be better plus pro and pre biotics. I think the Fibreplex products are highly rated.
Are dehumidifiers commonly used to keep chinchillas more comfortable in the summer? If it is the humidity combined with the heat that is dangerous, it seems logical that there could be some benefit. I take it their appetite is affected when it gets warm, perhaps leaving them more susceptible to gut issues while it is warm?
Do you know any more about the infection in the intestines? It sounds a bit odd, I presume you mean of the wall of the intestine, I wonder if there could have been a problem with the intestine that allowed infection to take hold, for example like diverticulitis. The question of whether to try antibiotics or not when there is no absolute indication is a very difficult issue, it seems to be for degus anyway.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 1, 2017 7:58:01 GMT
Thank you for these excellent questions. I didn't have time to answer yesterday, but am so happy this is actually turning into a discussion It's hard to say as it differes from country to contry. My feeling with Denmark is that most think of it as treats, but I do see a couple of shops selling dried forage (primarily flowers and herbs) directed at chinchilla owners. So I'm guessing there's a lot out there who use it as a supplement to the daily feed. It depends. I can only speak for my animals and they just seem happy to get a varied diet. I started out 12 years ago I believe, mixing only pellets. I did mix in dried items peas and mais. Today I actually do the same with mixing different types of pellets and dried forage in their pellets. Anyhow, I made a minor experiment with two of my then animals, where they got two bowls with a different kind of pellet in each (one pellet, one nugget). Over the course of a couple of weeks it became quite clear they shifted between these to. They would prefer one for a couple of days the switch. This confirmed my suspisions about my own animals, that they like the possibility to sort. I've also found that sick animals get stimulated to eat more if they can pick and choose, even if it's only 2-3 pellet types they are given. Somethings they prefer dried others fresh. It's much easier for me to give them fresh as it's right there in the garden, and I do not have to spend money on it, and it looks to me like they don't really care if it's fresh or dried, they just like being able to sort trough their feed eathing what they prefer that specific day. (sorry if I got into a bit of a ramble on this one ) I can't say I have noticed if they safety check or not. They do however tast things and either decide for it or aginst it. So thet may well be tasting to check. Yes, they do have strong preferences and they vary from animal to animal. One of my girls will try and spray new food items if she doens't like the smell of it. Spraying is a defensive gesture. Haven't seen this in other chinchillas, but she is a bit of an odd ball I was writing from my phone, couldn't remember the right word and didn't bother googling it We've had a bit of a constipation spell, and rasins help with this just as prunes. I don't know actually. We normally place a fan near the cages to cool the air and then i place some pipes made from clay (I believe they are used for drainage originally) in the cages, as they keep cool and the animals can sit on or in them. Might be yes. I don't know. The farmers have problems with a high death frequency from time to time, and they do not know what causes it. They temperate the barns they keep their animals in. It might have to do with air pressure as well. Nobody really knows what's going on when this happens. I will see if I can find the report. She had one infection she managed to fight of on her own it appeared, but then she somehow got an E. coli infecton and she didn't make it. Thing is she was bulling her fur. Not biting, pulling it all off. And I've seen this in other animals, where they do this because of an infection somewhere inside. Somethimes vets will reccomend antibiotics because they do not know whats going on, and they want to see if it may help. I'm actually still pretty annoyed I didn't just tell them I wanted to try out antibiotics to see if it would help. But at least I learned about some symptoms to look out for in the futur.
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Post by bouncy on Jul 3, 2017 12:51:18 GMT
The main question should be "what would chins eat in the wild"! They might find dried bits of forage on the floor, but I bet they'd prefer fresh! Seriously, though, the chin I fostered was given pellets and fresh greens. He lived to a ripe old age, without any health issues. Regarding the difference or preference between the two, I think it comes down to lifestyle. If the hooman has a rather busy life or has no garden, then dried is most convenient. There's also the cost implications. In terms of what it does to the furbies, it's certainly bringing in more water, vitamins, and better nutrition to the diet. All my rodents will happily eat fresh when offered, although they substantially eat dried forage. Heatstroke matches the symptoms you're describing, although it's often assumed to be a bug. I often spray my animals with a fine water mist, even the goos, to help cool them, offer ceramic tiles that have been in the fridge or freezer.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 3, 2017 13:45:45 GMT
My degus seem to quite strongly prefer dried forage of most plants, even though fresh is much better for them (in terms of vitamin content, mineral absorbablitity, dental abrasion and transit through the gut). I always think it's a bit weird that they prefer things dried.
Can chinchillas regulate body temperature by sweating? I've read that degus don't do this very well, but I don't know much about it. I mention it because fans only really help with cooling if the animal has the capacity to regulate body temperature via sweating. I suppose since you say that chinchillas have more of a problem with heat when it is also humid then they must be cooling themselves via sweating. I think tiles and stones work a lot better for cooling if you refridgerate them, I know they always feel cool, but that's an illusion to a degree.
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 3, 2017 13:46:47 GMT
As I have beige (or pink white) chinchillas it is easy to tell when it is getting too hot for them. Their ears turn red.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 3, 2017 13:51:52 GMT
LOL I can just imagine that - sort of like this but without the heart shape and on the ears:
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 3, 2017 14:16:59 GMT
And they look like flat tires moletteuk ;)Alle flat with bright read ears
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 7, 2017 17:51:42 GMT
I see that the results of photo"bouquet"'s changes are already showing. GRRRR!! Love this thread!!
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 7, 2017 20:13:27 GMT
One thing I have noticed over the years is my animals seem to be okay with quick food changes. Normally when going from one pellet brand to an other you need to move slow. It takes a couple of weeks to move over completely. As most pellets are very similar in content, and as I mix in other things with the pellets (dried things like peas, corn, flower mixes and I tend to use 2 types of pellets) I can go from one brand of pellets to an other, in one day, with out any problems at all. This is something I've had to do a couple of times as we ran out of pellets either because OH was feeding for a while, or because mice or moths came into the feed. When I get a new animal in, in need to do the slow intro to my feed as they are not used to diversity in their diet.
This might be one of the reasons why I have a tendency to introduce faster than what most recommend. I do take it slow if they haven't had fresh for a while as there is said to be a risk of them getting bloat it they go from no fresh to a lot of fresh.
This helps support my own idea that feeding diverse helps cultivate the microorganisms needed for digesting different types of greens. The most positive about this is how my animals don't get sick if they escape and get into something they shouldn't. Not poisonous things, just things like licquorish or any sort of inventory. Chinchillas seem to love licquorish especially salty liquorice for some odd reason.
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Post by moletteuk on Jul 8, 2017 12:58:10 GMT
I've never had any issues with food changes with my degus either. I recently got a bag of Beaphar Care+ to try because they have been eating fewer and fewer pellets, and they are immediately mad for it.
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Post by deguconvert on Jul 8, 2017 21:04:45 GMT
DOUBLE ZALT!!! LOVE double zalt licorice!
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Post by randomname on Jul 8, 2017 21:26:17 GMT
the active part of licorice is glycyrrhizic acid. It's amazing for digestive issues, respiratory problems & stress. It's being trialled for cancer treatment too. Too much can cause low levels of potassium in the body which causes muscle weakness (hypokalemia) fluid retention & metabolism abnormalities. High blood pressure & heartbeat irregularity can also happen when too much is consumed. You can get DGL (deglycyrrhizinated licorice) which negates the side effect possibilities but the recommended dose for human gastro problems is no more than 5g of DGL daily. So, tiny bits very rarely should not be a problem in my opinion Best thing about licorice - it's vegan! No cruelty involved
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Post by randomname on Jul 8, 2017 21:30:55 GMT
Have been meaning to ask you if you've ever fed yours mallow (either the herb or the roots) darthchinchi? I have some mallow root which everyone except the chins love. They like dandelion root, so why not mallow root?
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 9, 2017 13:15:02 GMT
I actually didn't know mallow root could be given. Haven tries it, they do however love dried mallow flowers and I'm looking into getting some for the garden
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Post by bouncy on Jul 10, 2017 9:01:27 GMT
The liquorice is fantastic! Just one thing to bear in mind - it will also contribute to increased blood pressure. I drink infusions of it all the time! Also good for digestion is mint and fennel.
Mine are fine with quick food changes too, possibly because each change is for something more palatable and tasty. When they were first rescued, I put them straight on a muesli (instead of pellets), because I always think of variety in diet. The same when I moved them onto forage and changed their seed mixes. They appear to have thrived and benefitted healthwise with each change within a couple of days!
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Post by darthchinchi on Jul 10, 2017 13:29:07 GMT
Problem with musli mixes if bought as mixes is they often contain a lot of sugary treats. That's an issue with chinchillas anyway.
Chins are notorious for getting upset tummies when changing food or introducing new food items. As mentioned this isn't something I experience except for when I get new animals in. They thend to react to the food even though I do take it slow. New animals here help with taking it slow as well as they are not used to the diversity in the diet and it takes some time for them to get used to eating more than pellets.
All my animals like their pellets though. I just tried out some farmer pellets. I had to go back to the Tima pellets again as they prefer these and so do I to be honest the Tima pellet is larger and better for them to hold on to.
We have a chain of pet stores here called MaxiZoo. They have their own brand og, xpellets for chinchillas. They smell wonderful and the chinnies love them. I also found some dried herbs recently that looks to be a big hit as well.
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Post by randomname on Jul 10, 2017 13:38:38 GMT
Just to add information to the thread, the rabbit research on muesli mixes are damning. The usual selective feeding, unsuitable ingredients etc that you'd expect but also a direct link (overwhelming evidence) to dental disease & short life expectancy. It caused uproar at the time (maybe 10 years ago?) They are very strong in their advice to only feed pellets/nuggets. Guinea pig advice is the same, but I haven't read the data. Made me switch all food to pellet food here.
Edit : If anyone wants to look into it, it was the "inappropriate word" Vet School in Edinburgh that did the research. Probably still online somewhere.
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