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Post by zenaida on Jun 22, 2017 16:23:36 GMT
So I've been thinking about our playpen (again). We love what we have right now, but I feel like I would like something where they and I could hang out for longer periods and for there to be more space. So first our current set up: What I really like about it: it wraps around the cage so I can just open it up and let them out. It is bigger and lighter than my last version. What I don't like: SPACE Nico and I can sit fairly comfortably for a maximum of 30 minutes or so. So my idea is to change the configuration and let them out into the area where our couch is. I have several concerns though and would love to hear your opinions about degu proofing. This is a picture of how the room normally is: The two middle ottomans can stay or go, they move constantly according to what we want to do. What do you guys think if I put the playpen like this: It would keep the girls contained inside the seating area and most importantly away from Nico's technology. We have a single cable cord that runs along the walls with the bookshelves and the couch, but all the other wires are behind the couch and by Nico's computer. I could still just open the doors for them to play and I could sit on the floor and/or on the couch. I would most likely make another pen or something to put along the book cases (current pen moved into that spot as an example). The most important thing here is that the girls NOT GET UNDER THE COUCH. It comes apart, but if they went under and wouldn't come out, it would be a nightmare for me to get them out from under the sectional. Also underneath the whole thing is made of a plywood that smelled really chemically when we got it. I'm 100% certain that the couch is not chew safe. Then to top it off there's tons of wires and things back there (you can see how we have chargers running through from the back). Oh and there are built in storage cubbies under the cushions that have gaps that certainly are big enough for them to get in. So if they got under the couch it is an urgent problem that will result in me ripping apart the whole living room. Here's a picture of the one inch gap for the bottom of the couch: If the only problem was the bottom gaps, I might custom make a "drop sheet" to fit the area. I already need to use an old sheet at the bottom of the pen when they are out because they dig at the carpet and we're trying to not owe the campus a ton of money for repairs. I could make a much larger cloth that would run up on to the couch to keep them out of the gaps. It would just be a matter of sewing up a bunch of fabric and making it to size. I would prefer that the girls not chew the couch, but I could get over that if it happened. The couch fabrics are all supper stain resistant "pet friendly" fabrics, they're supposed to resist teeth and claws, but I don't think they were planned with degu chewing in mind. I'm mildly concerned about places the girls could escape if they jumped on the couch, especially up on the back of it. So ideas? Opinions? Help me find as many design flaws as possible before I start putting time and money into this idea.
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Post by zenaida on Jun 22, 2017 16:29:55 GMT
Hmmm... Random idea... Could I just make an entire playpen with a really big sheet of fabric? I could drape it on the couch and use velcro or hooks to hold it up against the walls and furniture. I made a "swimming pool" on a similar concept when I was a kid. It was a large sheet of plastic and I pulled out random things like lawn chairs and coolers to put around the edges with fire wood holding the plastic up on the edges. We filled it with water and it was good enough for an afternoon of fun. It was sort of like this: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3414493/Three-friends-build-pool-timber-nails-plastic-sheet-beat-New-Zealand-summer-heat.html
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Post by misscatafer on Jun 22, 2017 20:23:50 GMT
Not sure about the fabric idea.. In regards to the sofa, my bar spacing in my cage both vertical and diagonal is 2.5cm, basically an inch, and they cannot squeeze though, however maybe they would be able to get under on their stomachs... Not sure though!
You just need to be wary (I'm sure you know) they will chew anything they can get to and can get into some surprising places. They have also taken a liking to ruffling up my mats, so be wary that carpets will get pulled at and weed on. I agree the play pen does need expanding though... 6 goos need a lot of space! Covering the bookcases etc with extra boards looks like a sensible idea if you aren't bothered about the sofa getting vandalised, maybe you can block off the underneath of the sofa with small boards or something to stop them attempting to get under.
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 23, 2017 10:28:47 GMT
I think they might get under the couch, they will have a lot of traction on the carpet to give themselves the best chance to do it. I don't think fabric will work, they will just chew through it. I'm generally concerned about the rate of attrition of 6 degus in a human space, I think the couch, furniture and carpet would be completely ruined in a few months with both chewing and the build up of pee smell, but it depends a lot on the degus. If you can block off the furniture so it is more just the couch in the pen, maybe you can put washable throws on the couch and cardboard or fabric on the floor and it would give enough protection.
Can you mock something up temporarily with cardboard to get a feel for how it might go?
Have you thought about just adding a couple of panels to the pen to make it as big as possible, maybe make one of the panels perspex so you can see them from the couch, get yourself a couple of big cushions so you and Nico are comfy in there?
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Post by zenaida on Jun 23, 2017 11:18:33 GMT
Hmmm... These are all very good ideas and points to consider. I'm not sure what the solution is right now, but I'm thinking through them...
I just had another idea, only to realize it would totally fail. I thought of making big mesh panels (like for removable dividers only bigger) and using those for the pen. Then I remembered the climbing...
I'm trying to avoid the perspex route. I would need a pretty good amount of the stuff and it is expensive, especially compared to wood. A whole sheet of plywood here cost me 25$ for a mid range quality wood (the kind I built the cage out of). Acrylic here costs about 100$ for that same size sheet. Plus I don't think I can cut that myself at home.
I don't think I need to worry too much about the pee right now, they are not big into marking territory or anything. When I have them out and use the sheet, many times I pick up the sheet and there's no pee spots on it at all. That might change if they got a larger playpen and were out more though. Based on their current cage behaviors, I would suspect that they would develop a pee spot though and I could do something to address that.
Chewing though... They will try their teeth on anything and everything. They don't seem intent on destroying things, the hammock for instance is almost completely ignored. But they seem intent on constant escape. Whether it be chewing at the door openings, chewing at the hinges on the playpen, or digging at the carpet at the edge of the playpen. They don't try to jump escape much. I also don't see much climbing, but honestly I have strongly deterred those to activities with the materials I have provided them.
The main thing limiting comfort in the cage right now is it is hard to lean anywhere or stretch out the legs. There is one panel we can mostly lean on because it is right up against the large ottoman, but even that is limited because if you lean lots you can mess up the alignment of the other panels. Cushions could be done, but that isn't the greatest need.
Hmmm... this will require significant thought... I'll see if Nico can get cardboard at work to play with some ideas. If anyone else wants to add please do, this is clearly going to take awhile.
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Post by moletteuk on Jun 24, 2017 10:18:50 GMT
Perspex is about £25 for 200x60cm here in the DIY shops, or you can get it custom cut online at reasonable prices, i just mention this in case there are other sources in USA. If it is hinged with a line of screws or bolts to the rest of the pen it would crack quite easily if you accidentally bashed into it, so that might completely rule it out.
I wonder if you could make fabric play pen panels just with wooden vertical borders, if you are trying to keep the weight and storage down?
The chewing is probably easier to work round than excessive peeing, so I think that's promising.
I see what you mean about the leaning, it's hard to be comfy on the floor without something to lean on, can you lean on the cage?
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Post by zenaida on Jun 24, 2017 11:20:53 GMT
Doing the quick math, perpex is a fair bit less expensive for you. That 25 pound sheet is 1/2 the size of the sheets here. So 50 pounds vs 100$ and the current exchange is like 1.25$ to the pound. I can look for other sources, but most "custom" internet sites were more expensive than my local home improvement store and that was the price I was giving you. I might give it another look when I'm home from work just in case. I do like the idea of perspex in general.
Yes, I didn't mention it fully, but the weight and storage space are a serious concern too. In the pictures you can see about 1/3 of my apartment (1/2 if you count the shots that look into the kitchen). The current playpen already doesn't have a good "home" being leaned against the wall in our hallway. It blocks like 1/3 of the walking space that connects the living room with the bathroom and the bedroom, so we have to step around it constantly. Weight is a concern because with the first pen we learned that since it was so heavy, we often didn't set it up (took the two of us to move it together). Plus Nico's back pain has been bad lately, I want to make sure that whatever I make is easy for him to move.
I really like the idea about making fabric panels! That wouldn't be hard or expensive relative to other ideas. Wood frames would be easy and I could decide about how to stretch the fabric (over the whole frame, sandwiched between two frames). I probably could even use a material like velcro along all the panels to put them together and pull them apart. I know it isn't very sturdy, but this pen is only for directly supervised play times. What fabric though? I'm thinking fleece... It doesn't fray, relatively inexpensive. I wouldn't go just straight cotton, they would dig through that pretty fast. I could go with a upolstery fabric which is heavier, but it is a little more expensive and I don't think it would hold up as well.
I have to go to work now, but thank you! I'll keep thinking about this! The fabric panels might just work!
Also you made me think, for protecting the carpet... why not just get an area rug on the cheap?
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Post by zenaida on Jun 25, 2017 12:34:31 GMT
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Post by zenaida on Jun 25, 2017 23:44:28 GMT
Still thinking: I could get a commercial metal dog pen. I initially looked at these, but I couldn't find a pen that had narrow enough bars and was tall enough. But now with the fabric idea, it might be simpler and cost effective to get a dog pen and cover it in fabric. For instance what if I got this pen: smile.amazon.com/dp/B00MU2F556/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_dp_T1_FDeuzbYG7MDSV ? This particular one is 40" tall, I would want to run some trials with my girls to see if they would attempt a jump this big, right now they don't even try our current pen which is 48" tall. The bar size is still way too big (6.5" tall and 1.5" wide), but I then would cover it with fabric to prevent escapes. I would probably cover each panel individually. Any opinions or ideas? I feel like there's gotta be a better way to do large pens for them. Note I sort of like that one because I think I could manage to cover the door and keep it functional as a door. The "foot guard" on the door would help keep the girls in if I was using the door. I'm going to keep looking and thinking though.
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Post by misscatafer on Jun 26, 2017 6:28:38 GMT
That play pen looks wonderful! I really can't think of a fabric which they won't chew through though... Fleece gets chewed in seconds. That baby pen looks amazing but it wouldn't last two minutes with degus. We use a fleece blanket to protect our wooden floor in the pen, and it is chewed to shreds haha. They deliberately chew holes and then scramble underneath so sometimes I look in there and there is just this little lump moving around like something out of a cartoon haha. They also pull the fleece from underneath the panels, si now I weight it down from the outside to try to keep it as taut as possible.
I had a mesh pen to start, and the biggest problems were climbing and being able to see the 'wider world', leading to constant escape attempts and frustration at not being able to get to the rest of the room which they could see! It looks like they would struggle to climb it unless they were jumping at the same time. Could you maybe cover that dog pen in some kind of wood/acrylic/metal? I think any kind of perspex or see through material would make them want to try to escape.
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Post by winic1 on Jun 26, 2017 6:34:56 GMT
Instead of cloth fabric, how about vinyl fabric? Smooth, water/wee-proof, lighter than wood. Can buy it at most fabric stores.
A large piece of vinyl also works great as a floor cover, and if it gets peed on, wipes up or hoses off easily.
I used to put down a large piece of vinyl for my kids to play with water tubs, play-doh, paints, anything messy. Works great.
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Post by zenaida on Jun 26, 2017 11:45:03 GMT
Yes, misscatafer, I completely agree I need to make this as opaque as possible. When mine are out for their current play time they will look for any ray of light to the outside and focus their efforts there. I initially used the wrong hinges and now the pen has about 4 small holes that they can reach where those screws were. Where do they focus all their effort? Chewing at those holes and I have to constantly guard them. Also they focus their in the cage chewing on the lower front glass where they feel like they could escape from. I know for sure that if my crew feels like they can see an escape, that's where they want to be.
winic: I like the idea of vinyl for my floor mat! I'm not sure though, JoAnn Fabrics looks like it usually runs about 10$ a yard unless it is clear or table cloth grade.
Hmm... I'm going to browse some more. You're giving me more ideas. Like I'm currently thinking along the lines of attaching fabric/wood/metal/plastic to the outside of the pen. Maybe something where I know they can't chew it, but it keeps them from running through the bars. I might still try that with the cloth too...
I really appreciate all this help! I feel like we'll get something good after sifting through all these ideas!
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Post by zenaida on Jun 26, 2017 11:48:06 GMT
What do people think about their ability to chew if I attached fabric outside the bars in a taut manner? I'm not really sure I can do that, but general viability if I could?
Man, I almost feel like I need to run materials testing with them today... Like making mini scale models of some of these ideas and making a small divider in their cage. Nothing permanent, but intentionally giving them something annoying to try and attack. Then I could see what holds up and what doesn't. (Yes, I do have a bit of mad scientist in me...)
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 12:01:36 GMT
You'd need to make sure it was super tight so they couldn't squeeze in between the fabric and the bars then down and escape.
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Post by zenaida on Jun 26, 2017 12:13:11 GMT
www.homedepot.com/p/Coroplast-48-in-x-96-in-x-0-157-in-White-Corrugated-Plastic-Sheet-CP4896S/205351385What about this white plastic "cardboard". I'm thinking I cut it to match the exact inside of the frame of the dog pen. I would place it on the outside of the pen to provide some barrier that way they mostly have metal to access. Maybe even do a little super gluing around the edges to ensure it stays in place. Then I make VERY small holes and wire the plastic to the bars to hold it in place securely. Do you think if I did this they could climb the bars? Do you think they could chew it? I'm directly trying to deny them an edge to get a grip on.
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Post by zenaida on Jun 26, 2017 12:16:53 GMT
You'd need to make sure it was super tight so they couldn't squeeze in between the fabric and the bars then down and escape. So wait... are you suggesting that if I made the fabric tight on the outside that they could wedge themselves between the bars and the fabric and use that to shimmy themselves up? I know I could make it secure enough that if they pushed the fabric they wouldn't move the edges to make an opening. I'm also confident I can get it tight enough that they couldn't get a wrinkle to start chewing. But I don't think I could keep them from going behind the bar. I hadn't considered the possibility of them using it to climb... Yikes
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 12:39:28 GMT
Yeah I was envisioning the shimmying lol
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Post by zenaida on Jun 26, 2017 12:48:35 GMT
And another one bites the dust. This is EXACTLY why I post my crazy ideas to all of you. So one random one of you can say "oh but they could shimmy up". You probably just saved me a bunch of time and money. Thanks Emily!
Ok I think fabric is being thrown out the window completely as an idea. Well unless I go back to the idea of making them a wood frame instead of the metal dog pen.
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Post by winic1 on Jun 26, 2017 13:44:51 GMT
The corrugated plastic (common tradename Coroplast) is pretty tough stuff. If you can find a sign shop, they sell it in 4'x8' sheets, and it should be about $25-$30 per sheet. It is tough enough that you could screw your hinges to it, and it would stand up on its own like the boards. Smooth enough they shouldn't be able to climb it.
For edge protection, add wood--I'm picturing wooden dowels, which are cheap, standing at each hinge point. Maybe held by wire loops through the hinge? That way, they can chew it, you can keep track, and they are chewing easily, cheaply replaced wood, not the coroplast.
Or, what if you used linoleum to line the metal dog pen? Sheet linoleum like you'd roll out on a kitchen floor isn't all that expensive, is it? You could have long strips, the height of the pen, that roll out and clip them in place to secure across several panels in one piece--something like that? Or use those super-strong magnets front and back to secure it? Something like that?
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Post by winic1 on Jun 26, 2017 13:47:09 GMT
We have a private fabric shop, that concentrates on furniture and curtain fabrics, that sells the vinyl fabric off giant rolls, much wider than that stuff at JoAnn's, for less. Dusty, dirty old place that's been there forever, but awesome if you want any of the stuff they sell. You need to find your local dusty old shop, it saves you so much.
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