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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 12:59:33 GMT
charliekhris, the flat face only becomes a problem when bred with crud health pugs or genetically crud ones, i.e. Have pinched nostrils, nasal canal is too small, pallet problems. It's all about genetics, and how strong they are and passing on good strong healthy features. The same is with any dogs as stated above ^ lots of German shepherds become riddled with arthritis and Great Danes die young because their heart can't cope with their body size, other big dogs get hip dysplasia, conditions where their arm bones grow too fast for their joints making their joints displace and so forth. All breeds have their problems and it's because people just breed their dogs when they shouldn't because they have crap features or health problems. People just like to pick on pugs for some reason lol. I've been reading a bit, it sounds like patched, or pie bald agouti degus seem okay? It's a dominant gene. Whereas your blues, blacks, sands, champagne, whites aren't.
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Post by darthchinchi on Feb 8, 2017 13:08:15 GMT
moletteuk you are spot on with the fur farms. There are pros and cons to everything. I'm very pro as our only source of research comes from them at the moment, when talking feeding. I'm actually talking to one who wouldn't mind feeding fresh and more viraity, but cost is a problem with 500 animals (think that's about what she has). But she experiments with her animals, and I've learned a lot from her. She also breeds some mutations as appears to see the same problems I do in some of the Recessive genes. But she has the size of herd needed to improve, so that's a big positive. I actually brought some Bamboo once, and the animals really enjoyed it with no problems at all after feeding. It's also our fur farmers who press the issue of breeding back to standards and not just pure Recessive breeding, to get the best animals. Even though this might be due to pelt prices it does benefit the hobby community in form of healthy animals. As for rescues I honestly tell people to not rescue here. Most rescues looks like something that should be put out of its misery, and I would never advice a newbe to seek out rescues as our biggest animal welfare organisation runs most of them, and they have no clue about chinchillas and are not willing to learn. Atm this one rescue is removing. They got them the 31. and by the 3. they said they were ready to go, even though at least 2 of the kits looked awful. Like two little rats. Even though they did have the age for adoption, they didn't have the condition. So this is actually quite a big problem here. I would always tell people to go to a breeder.
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 8, 2017 14:19:31 GMT
Rescues in the UK are a mixed bag, lots of the smaller ones do fantastic work for small animals, the bigger ones not so much. There are a lot of small animals rehomed privately in the UK too, we try to encourage people to source pets this way while also encouraging people to consider the full lifespan of the animal when they take on a pet (to discourage them from rehoming out unless in exceptional circumstances).
Regarding health consequences of gene mutations, there are two seperate aspects to this that can cause a problem. Firstly the mutation itself, so for example in blue degus, the gene mutation is responsible for the colour, the softness of the fur and probably the size reduction, and possibly other things, one mutation can have multiple consequences. The other aspect is if the mutation is recessive, then extreme inbreeding is required to produce the mutated population, and then this will also concentrate other recessive genes and narrow the gene pool of that line, which also causes problems.
So, even though the patched gene seems to be dominant, direct consequences of the gene may still arise. I don't know of any specific examples, I thought Maravilla had mentioned problems, but it's probably still quite soon to say for sure.
Generally we wish to discourage all non standard degus partly because of the health issues and partly to try to minimise the hype and money and shady breeding that lead to ego and selfishness in pet owners that leads to people wanting 'fancy' animals for acquisatory reasons like accessories or objects. If somebody is happy with an agouti degu then they are more likely to want the degu for its characteristics as a degu, not because it is pretty or different.
I'm with Random on pedigree dogs, I think far too many have been bred to the point of increased if not certain ill health, and I think the kennel club and crufts and all that scene bear a massive responsibility for this. It's exactly the same as the other pets we have been talking about, money and ego become the determining factor, health falls by the wayside and top breeders adopt this position of kudos that makes it difficult for ordinary people to question them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 8, 2017 14:31:22 GMT
Yeah I get you with the discouragement. I think they're all equally beautiful, mainly agouti and patched because they're still agouti and natural looking imo. The others just don't even look like degus.
I have to disagree on the dogs side of things though. We have these breeds now and the emphasis should be on breeding healthy dogs, rather than disregarding the breeds entirely. I feel in the dog world you can question breeders and it's pretty easy to do your research and find a reliable breeder who breeds from perfect examples of the breed - big enough nostrils, good palette, nice shaped spine, perfectly forming limbs, big enough skulls for their eyes (King Charles) and so on. We've decided this is how we want breeds to act and look therefore the focus in my opinion should be on only breeding the dogs that are prime examples of this in a good way - they aren't in pain and are of perfect health and aren't suffering due to their look.
My three pugs are ^ as above, we didn't choose them because they were pretty, we chose them because we love the nature of pugs, there's no other dog similar, and we made sure they were of the best of health and were going to have great genes to minimise deformities or health complications. Mine can all breathe as well as most other dogs, they go for 5/7 mile walks every day. Have the energy of a rabbit lol. Have no bone complaints, breathing complaints, pallet complaints and no too-tight tail complaints.
I personally don't choose an animal on "looks" I choose them on personality, certain breeds have totally different personality to other breeds.
Mutts depending on how much they're crossed, i.e. A dog is still a mutt if it's 2 different pedigree breeds bred together. So depending on how far they are crossed also depends on how many health problems they are susceptible to get. ☺
I just wish dogs and all animals we breed weren't ever messed with to begin with. But they have been. So we have to strive to get the healthiest.
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Post by randomname on Feb 9, 2017 12:58:50 GMT
Just want to clarify, I was thinking that I would like to see hay/forage being the majority of the diet, with a small amount of pellets. I do feel pellets are a very important source of vitamins & minerals. I just feel that we rely too much on them as the main source of feed. I have noticed that research into herbivores diet usually starts with rabbits (as they are the biggest group kept as pets) & any information/results usually filter down according to the animal's popularity. All the recommendations for rabbits are now pushed for guinea pigs, starting for degus & will probably be so for chins soon. Take for instance muesli food types. After the Edinburgh Vet School proved beyond doubt that those foods actually caused dental problems & shortened lives in rabbits over 8 years ago, it slowly filtered down to include guinea pig food, degu food & chin food. When the same school advised only a tiny amount of pellets (5-10% of overall diet) & 80% hay minimum for optimum gut health & teeth wear (& longevity) after a few years the same diet was recommended for guinea pigs within 2 years. I see more & more degu owners feeding plants/seeds & cutting down on pellets now, & am sure it will become standard advice in the next few years. I can't help but wonder if chin advice will be the same down the line? Also, you have to remember that although providing nutrition, the bottom line for breeders (like the fur farms) is money. The fact that the pellet is cheap, the workers don't have to clean up as much as if they provide forage or hay therefore cutting wages, it can be easily measured/monitored so they can project figures/profits easily & that it is manufactured from the cheapest materials available is their first concern. They are not going to have 20yr old chins to feed, they're not bothered about long term health & things like variety, feeding as close to wild as possilbe etc are never even on their radar. Pellets were invented as an aide for humans, not for animals. I'd just like to rely on them less if possibly, not eliminate them (unless research provides a better alternative)
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Post by goolover on Feb 9, 2017 13:48:29 GMT
Just thinking our loud, it makes you wonder if our degu's are actually getting what they need for their teeth as so many of us have and will have to tackle overgrown teeth,spurs etc. It cant be just an age thing as i'm sure i've read of a youngster on here, maybe between 2 and 3 having problems. Not all degu's have problems so is it just bad luck or our we missing something from their diet! Something that we don't yet know is actually good for them in preventing dental issues!
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Post by randomname on Feb 9, 2017 14:01:32 GMT
I think a lot of it is breeding from animals who have that gene, it certainly is in rabbits. They say any rabbit with malocclusion should never be bred. The Edinburgh school recommends coarse hay for back teeth wear so I assume coarse forage works too. Nutrition definitely helps too especially with the young. Am sure someone can explain what is optimal far better than I can though.
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Post by darthchinchi on Feb 9, 2017 16:22:00 GMT
randomname I feel I have to correct you with the fur farmers and hay. Mess is not a problem neither is price. But a lot of them have problems with infected hay that kill a large amount of their animals. No matter what people think of them, you should know that they (at least here in Denmark) actually get very sad when they loose animals this way. Most of them will spend the time needed to hand raise kits if something is wrong with mum and they can't get other females to take the kit. They do spend quote a lot of time just looking into health stuff and most are very proud when pet owners prefer to buy from them because of their overall health and personality. I do not know how the fur farmers worked in the UK, but it makes me sad when I hear stuff about "my" farmers that in no way fit what I see on an every day basis.
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Post by darthchinchi on Feb 9, 2017 16:26:35 GMT
goolover fact is that in chinchillas we actually do not know what causes dental problems. Some of it may be genetic especially when young animals get problems. However it does look like age and a poor diet is the primary problems behind teeth problems, also overgrown roots - by far the biggest problem here in DK. It's quite a nasty condition where the roots of the teeth grow into they eye socket or makes bumps on the lower jaw as they grow too large.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2017 16:35:36 GMT
Degus can have the same problem.
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Post by goolover on Feb 9, 2017 17:47:05 GMT
They certainly do
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 10, 2017 11:05:35 GMT
The influence on dental disease from genetics verses diet is not fully understood. For years people have been saying it's largely genetic, but when this salves our conscience so much, I think it makes it overly convenient to say this. There is some evidence that on microscopic analysis and chemical tests on overgrown teeth which may look OK, they are finding structural defects. Logically it is easy to think that spurs growing off to the side where they will never be ground down must be genetic, but there is evidence that incorrect phosphorus and calcium content in the diet can cause this accelerated growth in all directions. On the other hand, many people feed the same diet to multiple animals and perhaps only have one that suffers dental disease, so there must be a genetic component. Here is a thread about a research paper on calcium and phosphorus in degu diets. The study was very small but nevertheless was influential in kicking off a lot of the degu diet controversy. deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17319/important-recent-research-dental-healthHere are some more papers: www.researchgate.net/publication/49784332_Diseases_in_pet_degus_a_retrospective_study_in_300_animalswww.researchgate.net/publication/221741369_Impact_of_a_high-phosphorus_diet_on_the_sonographic_and_CT_appearance_of_kidneys_in_degus_and_possible_concurrence_with_dental_problemswww.researchgate.net/publication/51125669_Effect_of_high_phosphorus_diet_on_tooth_microstructure_of_rodent_incisorsHere's a thread on Degupedia about vitamin D which has lots of incidental information and papers cited. www.degupedia.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2924&highlight=vitaminIt seems there is quite a bit of info out there and the consensus seems to be that calcium content should be around 1% and phosphorus content should be around 0.5% Another problem which has been under investigated and under-discussed is bioavailability of calcium, in particular the ability of degus to digest calcium oxalates and cope with other mineral oxalates without them stripping calcium from the body, this issue is highly relevant to the high calcium seeds we feed. And then there are all the other minerals, vitamins, fatty acids, and other nutrients that mammals need to survive that we know much less about.
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Post by darthchinchi on Feb 11, 2017 8:18:11 GMT
I often look to reptiles when I need an answer to a question I can't find. Might sound unsafe but if we look at calcium/phosphor they say 2/1 ratio. This has been the only solid resource I've founded on calcium/phosphor.
I do have a paper on dental issues in chinchillas somewhere. I'll try and find it and post it. My views on dental issues mainly comes from talks with breeders. Some get issues with teeth or roots but when the animal gets a higher content on fiber in the diet the issues either stop or goes away completely. I know this has nothing scientific to back it. I've seen this over the past 10 years though. This, however, is not something people talk openly about. Kind of like with feeding other stuff than pellets. It has been a loong road to en able to talk about this.
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Post by moletteuk on Feb 11, 2017 11:39:09 GMT
Yes, the calcium phosphorus ratio of 2:1 is broadly accepted for many species.
And yes, the other known factor after calcium & phosphorus (& vit D) for positively affecting dental issues is forage, and preferably fresh forage. They have anecdotal evidence on degupedia for this.
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