Surprise babies.

[charliekhris]

Hello,

We are new to this forum and owning Degus so would first like to take this opportunity to say hi and ask a few questions. Hello!

So we bought two male Degus (who we named Zim and Gir) about 3 weeks ago from pets at home, we were told they were around 3 months old and had been sexed by their vet and two members of staff.... now as you can probably predict, we were very surprised when Zim gave birth to 4 little pups on Monday night (turns out they are both girls and most likely she was pregnant before they got to the pet shop). Since then we have been frantically looking up everything we possibly can to find out what we need to do to take care of them. (Including going into pets at home to tell them what happened and being showered with free toys, food and bedding).

Anyway, we understand that they need to be separated and sexed in about 4-5 weeks and to basically leave them to it but we are paranoid that their might be some dead babies in the nest and want to keep the cage as clean as possible without disturbing them. Can we look in the nest or will disturbing it stress Zim and the babies out too much, shall we wait til the pups are walking around the cage?

Also we have a Liberta explorer cage, does anyone have any advise on how to baby proof it so they don't get through the bars and is this cage big enough to keep potentially 4 more degus, if they are the same sex that is? 

Any help and advise would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks a lot in advance

Charlie and Khris   

[winic1]

Wow! This has to be the worst PAH story I've heard yet!
Are you sure they are BOTH girls? Have you looked and verified this yourself? Post pictures here if you need help with this. If Gir is male, Zim could be pregnant again, or about to become pregnant again, as degus are highly fertile immediately after giving birth.
(Here's a link on how to post photos:
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8318/add-photos-posts
And a video demonstration:
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16328/host-post-photos-photobucket)

If they are both girls, there's a chance that Gir is pregnant, too, since clearly they were kept with a male before getting to the store. She will look kinda fat, like pear-shaped? Does she run and jump quickly and lightly around the cage or is she kind of slowing down and walking heavily, more like a hamster and then guinea pig?

For immediate baby-proofing, to keep them in the cage, people typically put a layer of cardboard around the level the babies are on. You can just tie it to the cage bars with string or wire or zip ties. To keep them on that one level, remove any ramps or shelves or objects they would use to get up or down to the next levels. If you can't do that, then put cardboard or plexiglass along the bars of every level and every place that they can get onto, so they can't get or fall out (which is why people try to keep them to one level while they are still small.)

Remove the wheel or flying saucer. Babies get underneath it or behind it and killed when someone else starts to run. Look for anything else where they could get stuck or anything that moves that could harm a little one if it moved onto/into them. Look for things they could get into, but then not be able to climb back out of. Think of them as very agile toddlers, and babyproof with that in mind. You have water bottles, not a water bowl, right?

Degus generally take very good care of their young, so you don't need to worry about cleanliness of the nest or anything. I don't think they would leave dead babies in with their live ones.

Degu gestation is about 90 days, so there's no way your girls are only 3 months old. Clearly the store has lied about their age, their gender, having sexed them, having had their vet sex them. I'd insist they give you the name of the vet, so you can make sure you don't go to that one just in case he/she did actually look at them, and tell them so. Any vet who cannot tell he/she is looking at a very pregnant female has no business being in practice. I know PAH doesn't really care about anything more than making money, so complaining to them, even at the Corporate level, may not do much, but is there some agency you could go to? This is not mis-sexing a couple young degus. This is passing off a very pregnant female with complete mis-information as to age and gender.

You cannot separate the babies from the mother until they are fully weaned, so the 4-5 weeks guideline is usually too early. However, you don't want to wait too much later than that, or you risk further pregnancy. Six degus is too many for a Liberta, no matter how many extra levels you might be able to build into it. PAH owes you another cage. And, their standard cage they pass off on people as suitable for degus, isn't, let alone for four more degus. You will need another Liberta, or two-three of the PAH cages to join together to make it big enough. We have had members yell at PAH loud, long, and hard enough to get cages from them. Worth a try. At the very least, they should give you one to use to separate the boy babies until you can rehome them.

Ask all the questions you want here. Everyone is very helpful, and many have gone through the surprise baby event. Lots to read that will help you, too.
Welcome to the forum, and congrats on the surprise babies.

[charliekhris]

Thank you for the quick reply!

We had some friends come over who work with rats and mice to have a look at Gir (we separate him/her from Zim immediately after seeing babies inside their little house - it was a very big shock to say the least), and they had a good look at her and both agreed Gir is a she too. So we are fairly confident Gir is a she. We also immediately thought about the chance she might be pregnant too, but she isn't big like Zim was (we just thought Zim was a bit fat from being the dominant one in the pair, getting first dibs on food and such - were actually thinking of putting him on a diet). Girl is very active and fast, runs around like a maniac now, we think she's patrolling the area to keep Zim and the babies safe maybe? She is normal sized as of yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if she suddenly became pear shaped in the next 2-3 months.

Thank you for the ideas on baby proofing, we'll definitely look into doing that, maybe move the wheel up onto the second level so Gir and Zim still can get their exercise. Thank you for those suggestions!

Ok, that's a relief! We've been removing the soiled tissue pieces when they fall outside the nest, and removed a bit of placenta that suddenly started showing inside the nest with some tweezers. But other than that we've left the nest completely alone. We are really happy all our babies came out safe and alive! But it is a very surreal thing to happen, i mean we bought two degus and now we have 6. SIX! I am quite pissed off at the doctor at PAH who sexed them, he should really have seen he was holding a pregnant female, especially since she was only a few weeks from giving birth!

We still have the cage PAH sold us to go with the degus, but after just a few days we realised how pretty awful it is. We are quite glad we still have the old one as we were planning on selling it (we have a very small house, so the liberty cage takes up quite a lot of space, so does the PAH one), so we have somewhere to temporarily keep the boys. How many degus do you think could comfortably live in the liberta?

We would obviously want to keep as many of them as possible, but with our limited space we will most likely need to rehome a few of them. PAH said they can take any that we do not wish to have, but i honestly don't trust them very much at the moment (i wonder why), so we will try to rehome them ourselves.

Thank you, it is much appreciated, we are still brand new degu owners (Khris has previously owned a hamster when he was younger, and that's as much rodent experience that we have), we are very nervous about the safety of the babies, and we aren't completely over the fact that we only have owned Zim and Gir for a few weeks so they are also brand new to us.


Charlie (and Khris)

[goolover]

Hi charliekhris, ur furry babies are very lucky to have you, good to hear you are taking it in your stride even though it has been a big shock .  P@H are a joke, its really not that hard to sex degu's before they become sexually mature, maybe first borns as they are so tiny but you would think a qualified vet could work it out!!  Chase them for what you can get, cage, bedding, food...........they need to pay the price for what u've been landed with.  I too got a 'girl' only to bring home and quite clearly see the following day that he was a boy, I didn't even have to hold him to check, it was that obvious lol.  Went from 4 degu's to a house full but wouldn't change a thing, they make me very happy .  My girl had a stillborn in her first pregnancy and the pup was at the bottom of the nest. I waited until she left the nest and carefully put my hand in to check and found it. Not sure if she would have removed it herself later on but the rest of the babies just ran to the back of the nest away from my hand so was quick and fuss free. I realise you are new to you degu's, we were luckily very bonded to our girl when she gave birth so cant really advise what is best for your situation. I suppose you do what feels right. In a week you will see them scampering out of the nest and in 2 weeks you will have little spidergoo's who will climb and explore every inch of the cage. They really do grow fast! As winic1 says, degu's are very good with their young so just sit back and enjoy the noises and overall loveliness of degu's and their babies.

[moletteuk]

Welcome to the forum

The Liberta Explorer can fit 4 degus if you extend the half shelves into full shelves.

If you go back to PAH they should give you another Thickets cage, you can then combine this with the one you already have to make a passable cage for two degus, I think you need about two and half thickets cages (equivalent) to meet our minimum guidelines for two degus, but it should help with rehoming. Of course, future arrangements depends how many of each sex the pups are.

If you have a good relationship with your degus, you can sometimes poke in the nest right from day one or just a few days, but since you haven't had Zim and Gir very long then you will have to let them guide you if approaching the nest is distressing them. You could always distract them with some treats will you have a quick look and check everyone looks healthy.

Don't worry about cleaning, just spot clean anything really manky.

PAH should pay for a vet checkup if you feel you want one, they may want you to visit their vet, but since he or she is useless they should cough up for a vet of your choice.

Degus usually make great aunts so Gir probably is patrolling. Just keep an eye on her behaviour, if she is agitated all the time then you have a problem, you can sometimes get strange reactions if she were to be pregnant too.

Make sure they are well fed, lots of forage, plenty of extra seeds (in a variety).

Check out our beginner's guide
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19754/beginners-guide-degu-keeping

[winic1]

Nov 16, 2016 16:10:05 GMT charliekhris said:

...

We had some friends come over who work with rats and mice to have a look at Gir (we separate him/her from Zim immediately after seeing babies inside their little house - it was a very big shock to say the least), and they had a good look at her and both agreed Gir is a she too. So we are fairly confident Gir is a she. We also immediately thought about the chance she might be pregnant too, but she isn't big like Zim was (we just thought Zim was a bit fat from being the dominant one in the pair, getting first dibs on food and such - were actually thinking of putting him on a diet). Girl is very active and fast, runs around like a maniac now, we think she's patrolling the area to keep Zim and the babies safe maybe? She is normal sized as of yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if she suddenly became pear shaped in the next 2-3 months.

...

Mice and rats have EXTERNAL testicles, which are very very easy to see and tell a male from a female.  Degus have INTERNAL testicles, so you don't see evidence of their male-ness (to be blunt, no balls).  If your friends are not familiar with the difference, they would almost certainly identify any degu as female, as it has nothing hanging out down there.  The difference between male and female is evident in the spacing between the anus and the 'cone', which is the evident peeing part, which both males and females have.  (Perhaps that's what PAH's obviously incompetent vet saw, and used to declare them male, their cones.)

So, you check the spacing, and we have pictures for you to compare to.  The other way to confirm a male is to catch sight of him at, ummmm.....full excitement, shall we say, when his penis is fully visible (and amazingly long for such a small creature).  But, lack of sighting doesn't necessarily mean female, it could just be that you haven't seen it yet.

Here is one place with some pictures:  deguworld.proboards.com/thread/13070/degus

[charliekhris]

Our friends who came over and sexed them told us about the 'anogenital distance' used to sex most rodents, and told us about the 'fingertip' rule, basically to determine if there's some testies hiding between the anus and the cone We are pretty relieved to have these guys come to our aid, they work for Cambridge uni so they really know their stuff, we have way more trust in them than the incompetent vet at P@H.

Our degus have become quite comfortable with us, as we have refrained from picking them up unless very necessary (like the time each of them managed to escape the cage and we tried for a long time to coerce them back but had to just pick them up in the end). When we clean the cage we sort of let them climb into the giant hamster ball, and then carry them into the box we use to keep them while cleaning. We also let them get their baths outside the cage, to associate outside time with good things (also, they get very territorial if we let them bathe inside the cage). So, i think that has helped them getting comfortable with us.

After giving birth Zim has become a lot more confident and cuddly, she is very curious now and is the first one to run over to the door when we enter the room (they both do this now, every time we come in the room they rush up to the door and sniff through the bars, expecting treats and play), and she is a lot less shy. Is this because she was uncomfortable and just so full of babies that she didn't want to be around us, or does giving birth release some sort of motherly hormones making them more cuddly in general? I know this question is a bit silly, but i'm really wondering as her behaviour has changed quite dramatically, not that i'm complaining, i love new curious and fun Zim.

They let us put our hands all the way up to the nest (we haven't stuck our hands in there yet, i think we'll wait until the pups are properly walking around the cage - so far they have ventured out onto the cage floor, but quite quickly retreat into the nest again), so i think when we feel the pups can handle us cleaning out the nest a bit, we'll do it. How old do the pups need to be before we can try holding them? And i'm guessing we'll do that the same way we did with Zim and Gir, letting them come to us rather than forcing ourselves on them.

We will want to take them all for a check up when the pups are old enough, as the pups are most likely inbred, and to see if Gir has any inside her, or if Zim has any problems. But i don't really want to go to P@H, even though they basically said their vet will do it for free. It doesn't seem like any of the posters here have anything good to say about P@H.



Thanks again!


Charlie and Khris

[bouncy]

I would suggest looking for a good degu vet in your area. Ask based on not just whether they will see them, but what experience they have. You could consider a basement conversion to your Liberta, which would add yet another full level on top of what has already been suggested, which may stretch to housing five critters.

I'm assuming P@H has offered to take your pups? They should also provide you with extra food, substrate, nesting materials, and another cage. Yes, their cage is crap, but two stacked makes it better for any boys!

Don't know if you've considered, or whether you're still shell shocked, but we have a member relatively close to you who is looking for some female pups to adopt.........

[savvy]

I have no experience whatsoever on pregnant degus, but do have wildlife experience.

You asked if motherly hormones made her more cuddly. The answer could be quite simple, any pregnant female will instinctively want to protect her young. If she has been handled by the vet and staff at p@h, especially as they were unaware of her advanced condition, she would naturally shy away from human contact until she had safely delivered her babies. Just imagine having someone pick you up with giant hands around your stomach when you full of wriggling babies. It wouldn't have been a pleasant experience for her so she wouldn't want to repeat it.

Now she has had them, she will be feeling much more comfortable and relaxed.

I just hope she gave the vet a much deserved nip for so monumentally failing to do their job. When you do find a vet, there are some out there who are very good with degus, it may be worth mentioning that she was miss sexed and potentially roughly handled when heavily pregnant as she may be a little vary of vets in the future if they caused her discomfort.

[charliekhris]

bouncy: P@h has offered to take our pups, but we want to try and find homes for them ourselves, we are hoping there will be two females in the litter, as we can keep them with Zim and Gir. So any rehoming will be male pups, maybe someone would be interested in the male ones?

We don't want to do a botch job on our cage, seeing as the liberta is really sturdy and well made, and expensive. Having already bought two cages in the last month has put a strain on our expenses, i never thought that a pet shop would sell bad cages and not be good at what they do. Especially a large chain, you'd think they would be under scrutiny from the public at large. If we do decide to build on our cage, are there any how-to's or examples you know of that would be of help?

savvy: I hope Zim bit the vet very hard, he sure deserves it! The sales assistant that helped us the monday night when we came into P@H frantically asking for advice and 'wtf dudes' seemed really shocked, and looked very nervous. He did also mention that their vet had looked at our goos and was puzzled at how he hadn't noticed the fully pregnant female.
We live in Newmarket, so i think most vets here are mostly used to horses, so we might need to look around a bit.

Zim is indeed much more relaxed and comfortable. Yesterday we found out that they go insane for fresh basil, so we treated them to a couple of leaves each, they deserve it. Now zim goes nuts when she hears the scrunching of a plastic bag (thinking it might be basil). We'll have a look at some more fresh herbs, see what they like.


We'll need a carrier for them for taking them to the vets, right? Can they stay in the plastic/metal ones made for birds and small animals?

[savvy]

I would recommend an all metal carrier as they can chew through plastic bases with quite surprising speed. It took my guys less than 12 hours to reduce a large plastic wheel to a pile of shredded plastic and Pixie less than 3 mins to chew his way out of a plastic container.

Didn't even have time to start the stopwatch on cardboard boxes.

[charliekhris]

Oh my gosh! Ours don't do anything other to their plastic wheel than running in it, and they have a few plastic toys that we put in the cage, and all they do to that is carry it back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and..... Little weirdos.
Ok, so finding an all metal carrier would be the best option.... Most of the carriers i've seen have a plastic bottom and metal top, others are all plastic...

[savvy]

You can find them online, but they are a little pricey.

I built my own using the top section of an old cage, turned it upside down and put a floor in it before clipping a separate mesh over the top for a roof.

If the journey isn't a long on, a glass tank with just a metal mesh cover would suffice as long as someone is in the car making sure they are OK and still inside.

[charliekhris]

Oh that's clever! Just turning it upside down, that's so simple but so effective! I think i'll try something like that. When we take them to the vet Khris will be driving and I'll be holding them, so we'll have our eyes on them! Thanks for that tip!

I've bought stuff for baby proofing today, the babies have started wandering around outside the nest now, such silly little shaky things, they look so sleepy all the time with the little markings around their eyes! Will they change colour as they grow?

[moletteuk]

Pop an advert in our adoption zone for rehoming of the male pups, there are also links in the sticky thread to other rehoming sites, there is a specific degu rehoming group on facebook.

There is lots of info on cage building and modification in the housing section of the forum. If you particularly interested in the basement extension there are a couple of examples here deguworld.proboards.com/thread/20626/aventura-cage-modifications Just ask about anything specific.

Heavily pregnant females do get a bit grumpy and withdrawn so hopefully you are getting the real Zim now. It is actually quite difficult to tell if a female is pregnant until the last couple of weeks or so, but there are no excuses for a vet not being able to tell male from female.

I think you can get all metal cat carriers that have small enough bar spacing. You can also make a wooden box with a mesh lid, this works well because it's a bit less scary for the degu when the travel cage has solid sides, I think.

Fresh herbs and all kinds of fresh and dried forage is really healthy for them, and is something that petshops and some other sites don't really mention, so you can have fun with that, see lots of threads in diet section (when you get a minute!).

[bouncy]

No worries charliekhris, wasn't sure what you would do if you were to have a second pregnancy

With my Liberta, I got a second shelf made with a hole in the corner, and moved the original one tother basement. Have a look in the "show us your cages" thread, and I think there may be a separate thread about a Chelsea extension?

[charliekhris]

Thanks everyone for helping us calm down and learn a lot in such a short time! We will be modifying/building a carry cage, we found the pet surgery 'next door' has twovets specializing in small animals, and are used to dehus. So when the babies are ready we will head over to them with the crazy little family to make sure they are all healthy and happy!
We have babyproofed, but the babies have already torn our propfing down, they are crazy and jumping all over the place. It's hilarious!

We are super appreciative of your support, and find new info every day on this forum! Thank you so much and we are glad to be a part of the degu owners of the world!

Charlie and Khris

[deguconvert]

Degu pups are SO adorable!! Delighted to know that you are enjoying them!

[bouncy]

Wanted: Degu pup photos!

[savvy]

Nov 22, 2016 17:02:01 GMT bouncy said:

Wanted: Degu pup photos!

Seconded!