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Post by fred on Jun 9, 2011 17:50:26 GMT
OK, now to the details. The first question is on what we base the calculator. Two of the current ones are based on volume, one is based on “running area”, i.e. the surface area of the cage floor plus those of additional full levels in the cage (for the purpose of the project I will call this CARA – cumulative available running area – if we are going to use it you will need to help me finding a better phrase).
I would strongly suggest to use CARA rather than volume. Degus are primarily ground living organisms and the possibility to run should be much more important than that to climb. IMO running (not just in a wheel) is a must, climbing is a bonus. But anyone thinking otherwise, please make yourself heard. More importantly, there is a very practical reason. It is easily possible to have a good volume-based cage which is really not suitable for degus. I have seen some examples on the German pages of huge cages which have just tiny ledges above ground level. On the other hand, I find it difficult to imagine a cage based on CARA that would have too small a volume. I anyone comes up with an alternative parameter which is better liked by members here, I'll be happy to work on that basis.
For the moment I have derived CARA values for recommendations from the UK, Germany and Austria. The RSPCA recommends a multilevel cage of L 100 cm x D 60 cm x H 60 cm. At a height of 60 cm this means 2 levels including the floor of the cage and since the upper level will be slightly smaller, CARA will be around 11,000 square cm (1.1 square m). In Germany (animal welfare recommendation) and Austria (law) the dimensions are L 100 cm x D 50 cm x H 100 cm. The suggestions for levels are rather woolly (“different levels and ledges”; “three dimensional arrangements of cage structures”). It would seem reasonable to assume that two levels in addition to the cage floor, one over the full area and one over part of it, are found in most cages with these dimensions. This means a CARA of around 12,000 to 13,000 square cm. My suggestion would be to go for either 11,000 or (my personal preference) 12,000 square cm.
I think it would be a good idea to have a “grace margin” where the calculator would say “look, your cage is a bit on the small size, so please make sure that xxx”. Ideally xxx could be in dependence on the user's input (e.g. when it is possible to replace a partial level with a full one). If you agree with the grace margin, please state what you think its size (in %) should be.
The CARA values above are for a pair of degus. Wherever I have looked the recommendation is for the area to be increased by 20% for each additional degu and I suggest we stick with this value.
The final questions for now are what qualifies as CARA and how it is entered into the calculator. The degu.ldka.de calculator accepts only full (100%) levels. This is a bit silly as it doesn't explain how the goos manage to get from level to the next, and I think levels with smaller areas should be acceptable. In practice, the smaller the levels, the more levels will be needed to achieve the required CARA. Maybe we should set a minimum value (say 40 / 50 / 60% ). Levels could be entered either, as exact measures or as % estimates, I have no opinion on that.
Now am I am looking forward to all your comments and suggestions.
The calculator will eventually allow the user to enter values in cm or inches. Feel free to use inches in your feedback but don't use feet as this is too much for my simple metric mind.
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 9, 2011 17:59:00 GMT
Owwwwwwww my brain hurts 'simple metric mind' <---------- I wish my mind was so simple I think what you've suggested sound bloody brilliant and I really wish I understood more about grace margins, and well maths in general. (i'm far more creatively minded, so unfortunately I don't feel I able to help as much as I wish I could, sorry) But good luck, and I hope others are able to help more.
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Post by fred on Jun 9, 2011 18:49:48 GMT
I put grace margin in quotes because I didn't know what expression to use. What I meant is that if we suggest a minimum value for CARA (or whatever we use), that there is a margin (say 90-99% of that minimum value) where we don't tell the degu owner that his/her cage is too small but rather say it is a bit on the short side and where possible make suggestions for improvement.
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cazara
Burrowing Degu
Posts: 191
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Post by cazara on Jun 9, 2011 20:04:05 GMT
From what I'm reading you put into the calculator Height x width x length but your also wanting to put in how many levels /2/3/4 and any ledges people have This way we get a full calculation of the whole living area I really like the Grace margin and think 5-10% otherwise it may say cages too small are fine 20% for each Degu I agree if this is enough room per Degu we don't want a cage stuffed over max capacity Ledges I'd say put in exact sizes then it would be accurately calculated space IMO for CARA These are only my thoughts I'm not the one trying to make the calculator. You will need to do what works with calculating ect and making it work. This seems like a big feet in it's self I do wish you all the success with this xx
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Post by amie on Jun 9, 2011 20:04:45 GMT
My brain hurts a little too after reading that. Funny I work with math, yet my mind fails to understand any of it outside of work, lol. I'm all for the grace margin. It'd be nice if other calulaters said at the end, something like "well, your cage falls 6cm short of the minimum requirement, but eh, what's 6cm REALLY?" LOL... perhaps not in those exact words though. Saying how to make the cage better in other ways would be nice to rather than just " YOUR CAGE IS TOO SMALL, BAD DEGU OWNER!" Obviously the calulater will have to tell people IF their cage IS too small, but if it falls a few cm short here and there, surely that can be forgiven.
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 9, 2011 20:13:22 GMT
My brain hurts a little too after reading that. Funny I work with math, yet my mind fails to understand any of it outside of work, lol. I'm so glad it's wasn't just mine
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Post by blossombrooks on Jun 9, 2011 20:50:13 GMT
That sounds excellent fred, and quite an undertaking! Good for you. I have a strange shaped cage, it's kind of the L shaped tetris piece upside down so working out just how many goo's I could potentially own is impossible. Watching the use of the space gives an existing owner an idea but new or would be owners don't have that luxury. The CARA measurement sounds like a great plan, although personally I do think height plays a role too. It's great exercise, height means more ledges to jump around and goos really seem to like to jump. I think a percentage for the ledge size would be simpler (for daft people like me ) or else that's quite a lot of data to handle.
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Post by fred on Jun 9, 2011 20:52:00 GMT
Sorry it had become rather complicated I thought long about what I could leave out but it would have become impossible to understand. I think that once I have had more initial responses I may be able to post a small number of specific questions. cazara - Yes I want the user to enter length, width and height plus the area of the levels. The form will probably have a box for one level and then you can click to open boxes for any additional levels you have. - I suggest to include levels but not ledges in CARA, but that depends of course on how they will be defined. - I agree that the grace margin should not exceed 10% - you raise an important with the 20%. It's no good just to repeat what has been suggested elsewhere without putting it to the test. Once we have decided the minimum for a pair, I will calculated what this actually means for more 3, 4 5 and so on degus. Thanks for your thoughts so far
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Post by fred on Jun 9, 2011 21:08:30 GMT
Thanks blossombrooks. The length versus height issue will be the tricky one. I would like to find a formula that takes both into account and hope that the discussion here will give an idea how this can be achieved. I agree with using percentage; those who want to be super accurate can always use tape measure and calculator to determine the exact value.
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Post by Ady on Jun 9, 2011 22:16:39 GMT
I put grace margin in quotes because I didn't know what expression to use. What I meant is that if we suggest a minimum value for CARA (or whatever we use), that there is a margin (say 90-99% of that minimum value) where we don't tell the degu owner that his/her cage is too small but rather say it is a bit on the short side and where possible make suggestions for improvement. If there is a 'margin', I would go for higher minimum CARA value then. The 12,000 square cm. btw Well done fred! Also I agree there should be minimum value for level ( I would personally go for 40 %). I'm thinking ledges and smaller levels aren't ''available running area'' so shouldn't count into CARA?
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cazara
Burrowing Degu
Posts: 191
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Post by cazara on Jun 9, 2011 22:53:44 GMT
Sorry in my cage i have 3 lvls with 3 half levels which I call ledges. Not the wee things u add on to the cage with washers sorry for confusing things.
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Post by amie on Jun 9, 2011 23:29:47 GMT
I agree with BB about height being of importance too. Degus don't 'climb' as such, but they do like to JUMP!
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Post by deguconvert on Jun 10, 2011 5:14:02 GMT
OY! I've had a bazillion thoughts flying through my head with each post I've read in this thread, and I'm hoping that I can keep them all up front so that I don't forget any of them as I work away here. SO!!!
First question . . . taking as an example, the Thickets cage that P@H loves to promote . . . how does it come out using your calulation theory? I'm asking this, because it is a real life cage that many people end up with and then realize it is too small. So . . . if we want to have a calulator with "options" to help people out . . . what does the thickets cage measure in CARA, as is from the store, and then what changes could be recommended to bring it up to the more acceptable 12000 sq cm? (I hope I'm making sense, Fred)
Next, I think 12000 sq cm is a great number to start with . . . and think that as we work along we will begin to see if it is also a successfully workable number as well. We may find that a compromise or change is needed here, either greater or lesser.
Third, I think that a very clear definition between what is considered a "ledge" and a "level" is definitely needed. Personally, I think that anything 15 cm wide, or less than that, is definitely a ledge. I also think that for something to be considered a "level" it should be at least 30% of the length and 100 % of the depth of the cage. Now, here it gets tricky . . . the narrower and less lengthy the cage, the more important to have a higher percentage for level size. I think you have to include this in the percentages if that is what you feel will work best, ie. this level covers 30% length and 75% depth. This will give a more exact surface area to calculate and should give a more accurate result in the end. I think it is important to be able to inform people that when they are setting up their cages they can combine full levels with ledges placed about and then a next full level above that, or say a level that is 75%, or an L shaped level. I just wish I could lay my hands on a good graphics program (that I can understand) and could then draw 3D diagrams of what I am seeing in my minds eye to make it visible. I think we get stuck thinking that a cage has to look like it does in the store or on the box, and that isn't the case at all.
Next, I LOVE the use of CARA and I think that "cumulative available running area" works perfectly!
Lastly, I think the grace margin of 10% is a great starting point, and hopefully will remain that. But like the basic minimum CARA, we may find once we are working with it that it needs adjustment as well. As may the increase by 20% per additional degu, to the initial pair, need to be adjusted. It is an excellent starting point!
WHEW! I hope I remembered it all, and don't wake up in a couple of hours slapping my forehead and saying, I KNEW I FORGOT SOMETHING!!
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Post by fred on Jun 10, 2011 8:38:17 GMT
Thank you all for you feedback so far. The discussion is going fast and very well. It is great how questions and challenges arise between the different posts. cazara - you didn't confuse anything. It was not clear from what I wrote and that is simply because it wasn't clear in my mind at the time. Thanks to the posts here I am beginning to realise that is probably not possible to have a simple definition for level v ledge. Ady - I would also prefer 12,000 and think 40% is a good starting point. If the calculator is to allow quite a bit of flexibility, it will be important to set these values reasonably high. amie and blossombrooks - I fully see your point about height and (safe) jumping. It may come down to another question of definition. If the jump can be part of a run, the ledges should qualify as part of CARA. Not sure whether this in intelligible at the moment, but it will become clear over time. deguconvert – thanks four your detailed comments. I agree with everything except perhaps that we may not be able to define level and ledge by size alone but have to consider it it context (which only became clear to me thinking about all the feedback so far). Your post has made me realise that I will probably need a stage 2a. Once we have discussed the recommendations for length, width, area at ground level, and height, I will need to apply that to available cages (P@H, John Hopewell, Liberta) and see how it works out. Depending on the outcome of that we may have to have another discussion on how best to tweak the setting of the calculator. Special thanks to feathers for posting the picture of her cage at the best possible time. This is THE perfect example for our discussion. With the degu.ldka.de calculator your cage would have only two levels and would probably fail the test. With our new calculator it will have four levels and will pass with flying colours!! IMO that tiny ledge in the middle of the second level should be part of CARA. From this cage it clear to me that the input for levels needs to be in percentage. Feathers, it would help me a lot if you could let be have (by post or pm) the measurements of all your levels and ledges so that I can work out what the CARA would be.
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Post by Ady on Jun 10, 2011 10:00:20 GMT
Hi, I said before ''I agree there should be minimum value for level ( I would personally go for 40 %)'' bit I am just looking at my cage and I have 3 'levels' that takes about 30% and 1 about 25%. And I think it's important part of cage still. I'm thinking the question is if these levels only add some fun to goos (jumping) or do they actually add another running space. Does it make sense?
* those 3 'levels' are 30x30cm ledges
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Post by fred on Jun 10, 2011 10:08:30 GMT
Perfectly. I think the cage has to care for the essentials (run) first and then for the fun (jump) as much as possible. It's all very sensible but how to incorporate that into a calculator I haven't a clue at the moment All the comments make my point that this has to be a community project and so far is working great
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Post by philbailey1806 on Jun 10, 2011 10:38:59 GMT
I think its a great idea Fred, you've obviously put a lot of thought into this, good luck working out the kinks! (I'm sure it only a matter of time with that brain of yours) lol. I'd be very interested to know just how much a thickets house is too small by, and I think it is our duty to let P@H know. Surely it wouldn't be too hard for them to stock more generously proportioned cages for degus and chinchillas? They could obviously sell them at a more expensive price and make a bit more money.
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Post by w8152 on Jun 10, 2011 10:40:03 GMT
umm.. 12k and yes, great idea and glad your dealing with the equations for it
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Post by fred on Jun 10, 2011 10:58:44 GMT
If we are charitable and consider the longer ledge a level, CARA for the Thickets cage would be around 5600 square cm. Degutopia's Chloe raised the availability of other / larger cages at her meeting with them and I think the argument was that large cages take too much storage space in shops and that they would consider offering them online. Now how sensible is it to sell degus in the shop and the cage in which they go online??? I cannot help but suspect that they make such a fortune from the vastly overpriced Thickets cage that they may not be interested in alternatives at all.
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Post by kovu07 on Jun 10, 2011 11:01:57 GMT
That seems to be the most obvious reason Fred, they know they have a good thing going with the thickets cage, so why bother to offer something more suitable :/
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