very little “visible” bonding behaviour

[fred]

I could do with a little help in interpreting my goos' behaviour (two sisters, eight weeks old, with me for two weeks). During their activity phases there is hardly any bonding interaction between the two. The most I have seen them huddled together is about five minutes in their hammock and I have only once seen them grooming each other. Instead there is quite a lot of squabbling going on which seems to increase over time (perhaps to do with the originally shyer one becoming ever more assertive). The rest of their active time they mind their own business. Somehow more hamster than degu.

However, they spend essentially all of their resting time together in their nest (even shorter naps during the day). They ususally retire to the nest and re-emerge within a couple of minutes. The problem is that I have no inkling what is going on in there. They have rejected all of my oferings and build their own nest which has become huge. Everything I think “enrichment” they think “nest material” (toilet and paper towel rolls, egg box, even coconut halves). They seem to collaborate in building the nest, sharing food in there, and I sometimes hear what I believe is friendly chatter.

Am I right in assuming that they just conspire to keep all their bonding behaviour from me or do I need to be a bit concerned?

[kovu07]

Am I right in assuming that they just conspire to keep all their bonding behaviour from me

I believe so. Also they seem to have worked out that the more they do this, the more things you appear to be giving them to play with and bond over, sounds to me like some very clever Degus.

[fred]

They are frighteningly clever, no doubt about that

[deguconvert]

LOL!! I suspect that being as young as they are, and "intimately aquainted with each other" from conception on, they likely don't feel much need for a lot of bonding at the moment. They are putting most of their attention into their curiousity and getting to know their great big world. I never really thought of it, but as I reflect on it now, I didn't see a lot of bonding action when our boys were very young. As they have gotten older though, there has been a lot more bonding going on. They are all over three years of age now, and grooming is definitely a part of their day, but I don't always catch them at it. It seems to happen around napping times, or after a bit of a tiff with each other. I think you should be seeing more of it by the time your two are even 12 weeks old.

[fred]

Thanks. I didn't think there was much to worry about but it is good to have reassurance. The new and unexpected things they come up with every day are having some effect on the adrenaline level. The bold one, if I don't offer her my arm to get onto my shoulder / the hoody, has now taken to make the half meter jump from the cage onto my head! And if she misses by a bit and lands on the nose, it can be painful.

[Kat]

May 11, 2011 15:03:14 GMT @fred said:

The bold one, if I don't offer her my arm to get onto my shoulder / the hoody, has now taken to make the half meter jump from the cage onto my head

That actually made my laugh out loud.

Kat
x

[fred]

I am not convinced that the fact that they are sleeping together means that all is going well. The squabbles have increased in intensity and seem to be about dominance. One of them was rather timid at the beginning and took some time to get used to her new home, and during this time probably was a natural submissive. But now she is challenging her sister.

Here is my underlying concern and question to all. I am of course aware that it may become necessary to separate goos that don't get along, but I am not yet set up to do so. I have converted a large vivarium and will extend this in height to double the space and have the option of two separate units. The plan was to do this in three months time or so, when I have a bit more hands on experience with them. Should I better bring that forward?

[deguconvert]

One thing that has been noted to be a problem for degus is pups that are too quickly separated from their parents, as both father and mother are very active participants in the rearing of the pups. When they are removed early, say four weeks of age, they haven't learned the cues and subtlties of degu community living and getting along with each other, which can lead to early aggression. This was the case with one of our members a little while back, and in this instance I recommended the dominance hold for the purpose of helping the young pups to understand that their behavior was not acceptable. They need to learn what their limits are, and for that member, it was very helpful in calming the aggression that building in particularly one of her young goos. If you are seeing fighting that more resembles the furball that Smux describes, you may want to consider holding them gently in a manner that will help them calm . . . a gently dominance hold. You may need to do this with both of them. You don't pin them, but you do gently restrain, yet not such that they can't wiggle free if they want to. It's just a thought, not a "you should" kind of recommendation. Base your action on your observations and please discuss it more if you feel the need.

[fred]

Thank you, this has been extremely helpful (the wisdom of Momma Bear ). I am a biological scientist and although working in a different discipline, I know a fair bit about ethology. My difficulty, at this early stage, is to apply it to captive degus. It would fit my observations that they simply don't know their limits well enough. They were with their parents until I got them but perhaps, for some reason, they just didn't listen when that was taught.

[moletteuk]

If you are worried about it, then it won't do any harm to bring forward getting ready an emergency home. We had a diarrhoea attack in one of our small goos, and had just finished building them a new home, so were very relieved to have the old home as a spare we could use to separate her for a short while. I'm a bit of a control freak so I like to have all scenarios covered lol!

If it reassures you at all, my 3 started boxing and squabbling on the second day I had them. It really worried me at first, but after watching them carefully, I could see it never escalated and they were making the chattering sounds, so that indicates it's nothing to worry about. I can't honestly remember how much they groomed each other at first, probably not as much as they do now, but I did see it right from the start. The other interaction thing that was obvious from the start was the chattering to each other they do virtually every time they pass each other.

Maybe if you tell us a bit more about what they get up to we could comment a bit more?

[moletteuk]

PS can you hear them chattering or squeaking or moving about grooming before they settle down for a nap - mine frequently have a little bonding session before a nap.

[moletteuk]

pps I think it's normal for them to squabble while young, as they need to establish dominance now there are no parents around. It's also normal for it to carry on as they have different growth spurts and change in who is the most powerful and also as their characters develop.

[deguconvert]

Were they with both father and mother, or were they with only adult females. Smux has brought it to our understanding that pups raised sans father are often found to exhibit more aggressive and uncontroled behaviors. The absence of the training that is provided through the father leaves a gap in their socialization skills that is sometimes (or more than sometimes?) crippling to their ability to form a cohesive and balanced community bond. I actually wonder if this is what we see when we have degus with more pronounced social problems that arise with the onset of sexual maturity. One of our three did, and I had to take nearly 5 months of daily work to re-introduce him to the other two, constantly correcting his behaviors when they were getting out of hand. Unfortunately it took me most of those three months to begin to figure out that I had to be top goo to them, and I had to make my desires known to them in a manner they could understand and respect. In the end, it worked out and now they are doing great and have been for over two years now. However, I often felt like . . . hmmm . . . "big brother degu?" Or would that be big sister . . . lol. Anyway, lots of firm and loud "no" or "SQUEAK" (so glad houses are somewhat sound proof and people walking by wouldn't hear for the most part!), a hard tap on the outside of the cage to make a loud ping, a blow in the face, or even reaching in and taking out and holding in my hands while talking to them. The more consistently I practiced this, the better they got together. It was time consuming and energy sapping, but so well worth it once we finally triumphed!!

[fred]

mottleuk – during their activity phases they largely ignore each other and I hardly ever hear any chattering. I think they probably talk more to me than to each other. For their nap they abruptly retire to their nest (at least I haven't observed anything in their behaviour that suggests that this is imminent). There is sometimes a bit of chattering in the nest but I have no idea what they are up to. You are absolutely right about being prepared for all scenarios. I am today setting up an alternative emergency home. It could only be a very short term solution but hopefully it won't be needed and is only for my peace of mind.

deguconvert – they were with both parents plus an aunt with a litter one week older. But I could imagine a scenario where a father who did not have the optimal socialisation experience himself (I know he was adopted from P&H and was single at the time) may show some shortcomings in the training of his pups. I found the story of your boys intriguing and it does provide plenty food for thought. I think I have a better idea now when to intervene and when not.