|
Post by listracian on Dec 2, 2010 20:55:14 GMT
I made a bed for Arthur and Merlin as I can't get anywhere at the moment because of the snow and so nothing will be able to get to me either. Anyway it's made with cardboard and string and I put lots of toilet roll in there so they had something comfy to sleep on.
Anyway the two are having a bit of an upset tummy but I think that has something to do with coming off the degu nuggets and onto the guinea pig food I give all the others. However I saw blood on the toilet roll in their cage, I got them both out and me and mum went over them getting bitten by Arthur in the process and can't find any sign of an injury anywhere.
They have been fighting but only the normal boxing thing and nothing vicious so am slightly worried. I cant get to the vets either because of the snow and I don't think there was anyone even there today! (I walked past with the dog this morning but it's about a mile away and it's cold and don't want to walk them down in this cold weather in case I slip or something and loose them!) I am honestly not sure what to do as they are perfectly happy in themselves, drinking and eating and running around like maniacs.
Any idea what it could be?
|
|
|
Post by Jaiye on Dec 2, 2010 21:22:25 GMT
Does the guinea pig food have dried beetroot in it? Have heard other people say on here that the beetroot can die their urine a bit red, so it might not be blood afterall?
Unsure on the ingredients of the food you have, but maybe its that?
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 2, 2010 21:29:45 GMT
I honestly don't have the bag with me but I don't think it is. I am pretty sure it's blood. The ingredients aren't that dissimilar to gerty food, I just get this one because it's cheaper for more of it and I has a lot of goo's to feed! I guess it is possibly they just caught themselves on something and I am just being paranoid...
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 2, 2010 23:25:51 GMT
If you are weaning them off the nuggets and onto the guinea pig food slowly (as I always advise, based on degutopia's suggestion) then it should be fine, there shouldn't be any problem with their stomach. Beyond that, I can't add much as jaiye has already covered beetroot. If they both seem happy it is likely they both are happy and this usually means that they're fine...if anything was troubling them they'd show it in their behaviour, so I wouldn't worry. Just to be on the safe side though, change the toilet roll in the cage with clean stuff and check it daily at least.
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 2, 2010 23:45:59 GMT
Okay I think I know where the blood came from, not the boys...
Just did my rounds of the cages and the girls in bottom cage moved and there is blood all over the place. I checked the girls over and one of them is bleeding as if she were having a miscarriage or something but she isn't pregnant. It's impossible! She hasn't been near the boys since she was like 8 weeks old and she is over a year old now! She is bleeding loads and hardly moving. The other girls are looking after her so I don't want to take her out. One even took food up to her because she isn't moving much. I can't do anything now with what the time is and everything but I am properly worried. It's possible Arthur and Merlin got it on them running around the cages, if the blood got flicked out, which it has as it's on the floor.
She is properly upset if she is moved and she properly freaked when I picked her up. I don't even know if I can get her to the vets tomorrow because of the snow. Any ideas of what it could be would be appreciated right now, I am really worried.
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 0:09:21 GMT
First thing you should do is take out any of the girls that you think might be a problem for her (some degus will take weakness as a chance to move up the hierarchy, MOST tend to their needs) and then you will probably need to make sure she is comfortable where she is. Take a water bottle and offer the tip to her if possible, the alternative to this would be a dropper if she's too far inside a house or somewhere difficult to get to. Also offer her food (especially treats, if this is the last time you see her then you want her to have had something nice before she went) like the girls are, let her know you're trying to help. Sadly, if she is bleeding fast then it's likely that she hasn't got long left. Hopefully she has bled loads but it has slowed down (loss of blood would be the cause of her weakness) and has hopefully stopped before she's lost too much. There isn't much I can think of that it could be if not a miscarriage but I am not an expert in these things...someone who might be is the RSPCA and they link to a 24 hour vet helpline ( www.vetfone.co.uk/ "Call the Vetfone service on 0845 057 2222 and pay a fixed fee of £9.50 by credit card", the alternative is £1.50 a minute)you can call at the very least if you're not close enough to one of their hospitals (I took a look, no emergency RSPCA and closest daytime vet is 18 miles away). If I was closer, I would help more...all I can do from here is offer advice though :-) Last piece of advice, keep her superwarm...loss of blood will mean she will feel colder than normal, so do whatever you can to minimise draughts and cold...cover the house in a towel or something so it keeps the warmth in, cover the cage in a light cloth (both preferably ones you don't mind getting ruined, just in case one decides to)...and good luck with her, hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 0:25:45 GMT
Her and her sister are the top dogs out of the 3 of them, Spice has just carried on running on the wheel the whole time and occasionally goes over to cuddle up before running again so I am pretty certain she will be okay. They have lost a sister before, they were all inbred and to be honest none of the litter seem overly healthy but I have made their lives as comfortable as I can.
I have seen her eat, or at least she was nibbling on some food as I put her back right next to the food pile. She wouldn't take any water and I tried a syringe thing as well. I will look at the vet phone thing but I am honestly wondering if they would be able to do anything or say anything different to what you have.
I might just set several alarms through the night to keep getting up and checking on her. My room is really warm at the moment so she shouldn't get too cold and there is plenty of bedding and I put some more kitchen roll in there around her to help keep her insulated which she did move around a little, though she didn't move. I think she liked having a cover on her.
I am honestly expecting her not to make it through the night though I want her to just so I can take her down and find out whats wrong. I know she isn't pregnant, its just not possible but yet the blood is without doubt coming from that area. My boyfriend wondered whether degu's have phantom pregnancys and it's just the body causing a miscarriage though it doesn't need one.
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 0:31:41 GMT
Okay called the vet number but they just said she needs to see a vet asap because they haven't the slightest idea whats wrong with her.
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 0:52:02 GMT
Keep on trying with the water, if she's in a warm room (important to keep her temperature up if she's lost blood as she'll go quicker without the warmth) then she'll probably need to drink at some point. Also make sure the others all have easy access to water and the bottles are all full as they'll have the same problem with the warmth, although if it isn't really warmer than normal you can probably just tend to her.
There are other RSPCA numbers that you can try, some of which aren't so expensive, but degus are a fairly exotic animal and most people won't even know what one is, you'd be better off calling your usual vet if you have one (with 12 degus I would think you do...although, saying that, mine is the RSPCA because they're nearby, my backup is CJ Hall who are expensive but 24 hours and experts in degu :-)) as most will allow 24 hour emergency calling. I considered the vetcall when Loki did his high-dive (I can joke like that now he's survived it and is still going so many months later :-)) but in the end I went to the hospital to get him treated and all they did was give him an injection and gave me some metacam to feed him and charged me £23 for it all (although granted a proper vet might have charged £60+ and more for late night callout)
I was thinking phantom pregnancy at one point, but I am more inclined to believe that she may have injured herself in the cage or been injured by another...I find it hard to believe that the body could start up a process that results in death or near-death, and a miscarriage would probably result in less blood (unless it has stopped by now). I am also assuming that you haven't had much luck in looking her over as she was so freaked out so you might have missed something that gives us all a better idea of what we're dealing with...and this is kinda a double-edged sword because either you leave her alone which is good for her (mentally, possibly physically) but doesn't help us...or you pick her up and take a look and possibly do more damage to her with her struggling to get away or at the very least give her bad memories for her final moments. While writing that, something did come to mind...any chance she could have eaten anything that did damage to her insides? Has she been out before this happened? It's unlikely, but it might explain the blood, the need to be still and the freaking out, although internal injuries of all sorts could explain it just as simply. Where did you find her when you picked her up, do you remember? Was she moving around before you picked her up?
Getting back to the double edged sword...if you decide to pick her up, be VERY careful (not that I would expect anything less from a degu owner :-)) and don't move her too suddenly...if she struggles, don't force her...if you have to, dismantle things around her to get to her, even if it means taking the cage apart...it might mean you have to move her with something else, of course. If you don't decide to pick her up, it's the safest choice but we're back at the start with nothing to go on and few options except wait and hope for the best.
Whichever choice you take, remember that if this ends badly you know you have done your best and the decisions you made were without knowing what the outcome would have been...you chose what you thought was best...it may have been it was destined to end badly whatever path you chose...but here's hoping she wakes up tomorrow a little tired and weak but alive and the bleeding has stopped, and you get her to the vet who gets her strength up with saline IV (or something similar) and finds out the problem for you...and here's hoping it's something REALLY stupid like a tiny cut and she was freaking out because the area it's in is sensitive.
Edit: Hope they didn't charge you for basically saying "give up, try a real vet". The RSPCA also links to a "find a local vet" page so I will post that here and maybe you can get her into one tonight.
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 1:12:56 GMT
I am having internet problems at the moment so can't look for any info...I am pretty sure I linked to the "find a vet" somewhere on happydegu.wikia.com but if not search www.rspca.org.uk/utilities/help-and-advice for "find a vet" and you should be linked to the vet search engine which should be able to link you to any vets nearby you that offer an emergency number to call. The vetline should have been able to do this for you too, esp. if they did charge you for the call. Edit: Oh, and I have to go to bed now, I hope all goes well for you tonight with her...when you check on her, try not to disturb her or her sisters as it sounds like she is going to need all the rest she can get. If you need something to give you a little smile, have a look at this gumtree add I found earlier today www.gumtree.com/london/01/69545401.html :-)
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 1:15:13 GMT
She is still alive at the moment, she has moved about since she started bleeding you can see it and I had managed to coax her down so I could get her out. She just hasn't moved much since putting her back in. There is plenty of water for them, I fill up all the bottles before going to bed anyway. She doesn't like the syringe and isn't drinking water freely. She is moving still, just not going anywhere.
I do have a vet who is actually specialised in small animals and is also the father of one of my sister's ex boyfriends and so gives us discounts! He has seen her before when she was born and put her sister down when she got really ill and their mother. The problem is he lives in Lewes and with the snow and ice outside no one can get anywhere. I went outside to see just how bad it is and stuff here has properly frozen over so even if I could get hold of a vet it isn't safe to go anywhere.
I was able to see where the blood was coming from, I have several bites and scratches because of it but it was beside the cone bit. There was a hole there that the blood was coming out of.
Okay she has just jumped up to the top level, seems to still be bleeding but not as much. Spice was cuddled up with her and her sister next to her both keeping her warm. I think I am just gonna have to wait and see what happens tomorrow and see if there are any vets in the area. I would hope that there were but I know vets can travel quite far to get to veterinary centers.
I am so proud of the other girls in the cage though they are properly looking after her. In fact having the three of them together she actually looks bigger round the stomach area then the other two as well. Then again she might just be fluffier, Spice runs on the wheel all day so is skinnier anyway.
I think I am just gonna have to go sleep and see what I find when I wake up.
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 1:41:30 GMT
If it's the hole directly below the cone if she was standing up, that'll be the opening to her bits so it does sound like an internal injury. If it's anywhere else around the cone, it's an injury that has made that hole and it is probably best that you see to it with a quick clean with weak saline solution if you can't get her to a vet's. Once you've cleaned with weak saline, add a bit more salt to the solution and repeat it...it's going to hurt her a little, but it'll hopefully close up the injury if it isn't a "gusher" (major injury that would require stitches). If you or the other half felt brave, a temporary repair on any hole could be done with the right brand of superglue (I talked about it on the forum before, but not for on degus...some superglue is toxic but some kinds are surgical-grade and safe on humans so safe on animals too) although I have no idea what to glue over the hole and if it's bleeding still that'll make things worse. However, the fact that she's gone up to the top level suggests that she's not as weak as I thought she sounded and prognosis is good for tomorrow morning although obviously not 100% sure of that. When Elsevier went, he was exceptionally floppy on his final night (very weak, barely walking, I put him into his house and moved him into the comfortable position with tissue around him or he would have slept how he lay) and she sounds a bit more peppy than that. Also, if the bleeding has slowed then this is another good sign as she's got energy and mobility while bleeding and it is slower than before, it'll stop before she does!
If you are 100% sure she hasn't been in contact with any males, and there's no way semen could have got to her even through the air (very unlikely but if the males are in a cage above the females it is possible, although you said her blood was in their cage so it'd possibly be the other way around...but if blood can get into their cage, maybe semen could have got into hers) then forget any notion that it is a miscarriage from an actual pregnancy...only chance of that is if one of the other girls in the cage is a guy, but you'd have known that by now.
The vet you know, it might be useful to contact him and get some advice tomorrow or maybe even tonight if you think he will appreciate the gravity of the situation...although any vet who can't accept the owners of their pets feel the pain just as much as the pets do shouldn't be allowed near animals :-)
It is likely that her sisters are cuddling up with her to keep her warm, like you said...Dante did this with Elsevier, it's a natural response to keep the sick animal warm to help with their chances of survival...if they're out tomorrow and she isn't, expect the worst, but if they're not out I'd do my best to leave them be until you have somewhere to take her and someone to help you take her there (you're going to need a car with central heating, and a good driver if the roads are as bad as you say they are). It's up to you if you feel you have to know if she's survived before you make the relevant calls, I'd personally assume she's still going then call everyone back if I found out she wasn't after doing so and say to them that she'd *just* that moment died.
Right, bedtime, my boys are waiting to go to sleep and have been for a while...they send her cuddles and all that, Theresa sends her some almond flakes (their current treat, I change it regularly :-)) and the babies say hi. I'll check on the thread tomorrow and make any comments while at work if she's still fighting fit...I'll be on an iPhone so forgive (or be glad of, considering my usual essay-length posts :-)) the short replies and time it takes to post them. Feel free to make any comments about her situation or anything you notice about her or the rest of the brood, the tiniest thing may help me, you, or other posters here and ultimately will help her :-)
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Dec 3, 2010 5:13:27 GMT
Just wanted to say, I am watching this with interest, although I have nothing more to add to all that has been said already. I DO hope that she will be able to make it through the night, and fully mend! My thoughts are with you!
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 8:12:58 GMT
On the plus side she is alive this morning and cuddled up with the other two so I don't want to go and move her at the moment to check her over. She is sitting on the swing with the other two and are fast asleep so will leave it till they are all moving again.
I will need to clean the cage out as well there is so much blood in there though part of me wonders whether it looks more then there is.
The boys cage is right next to the girls cage, and they do all get to run around all of the cages. Most of them are all related so they tend to sit there 'chatting' together. It's all rather cute but I can't imagine that she would be able to get pregnant when they haven't actually been able to get to each other.
The bad side of this... the roads here are worse then yesterday because of how cold it was. We might be able to get the car out this afternoon but it's too icy at the moment so I will just have to keep an eye on her for now. She seems happy enough curled up with her sister and cousin so yeah I will just let them rest for now. At least with all this snow and stuff I can't get to work so I can keep an eye on her.
|
|
|
Post by nickymills30 on Dec 3, 2010 8:21:35 GMT
Sending loads of google hugs and kisses, and praying she is ok this morning xxx
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 9:11:17 GMT
Glad to hear she has lasted this far, and is it possible one of the other two is injured too? Would explain so much blood. If you are seeing soaked substrate rather than actual blood it will look like a lot more than it is because if the mass of the substrate. The girls sound very sweet together, any reason not to take a photo for yourself and us?
Very unlikely she could get pregnant but stranger things have happened.
I know that if I was in the same situation I would have to go out and risk it on the roads personally...you may find that main roads are cleared/gritted and it is just the side roads that are icy, but I am sure you know for sure as you walked the dog :-) See how she is when she wakes, she might be fine enough to wait to the afternoon.
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 9:53:47 GMT
Yeah we have a main road outside the close and it's dangerous, already seen a car go skidding on it.
She has woken up and was running around with the other two and has been eating and drinking so now I am just confused. The other two are fine, I checked them all over. It just makes no sense at all. They looked like they were playing tag... and I dunno she seems perfectly fine. No more bleeding and completely herself again.
I am so confused!
|
|
|
Post by nickymills30 on Dec 3, 2010 11:26:49 GMT
so glad she is ok today xxx
|
|
|
Post by smux on Dec 3, 2010 18:48:49 GMT
Now the ultimate test, is she less fidgety when you pick her up this time? Do it as gently as possible just in case there is internal damage, but if she doesn't fidget then prognosis is looking better each time. Also how are her eating and drinking habits now, is she getting back to normal compared to last night...although those habits may have just been caused by her immobility.
|
|
|
Post by listracian on Dec 3, 2010 22:24:33 GMT
Okay so she started bleeding again earlier but not for very long. I called the vets but as I kinda suspected they are fully booked because not all the vets can get in. They said it would be best to keep her comfortable and warm and to keep an eye on her as their small animal vet was out of reach.
She has been more herself today been up and about, she isn't as active as the other two. She is noticeably fatter then the other two, even my parents could see that. It's just really confusing because I would have said she was pregnant if it hadn't been for the fact I know she can't be.
|
|