End-of-Life Advice

[simong]

Hi,

I have an old and much loved degu (Mr P) that is clearly coming to the end of his days. I want to make the best and kindest decision for him as regards to if / when to have him put to sleep.

He's had problems his entire life due to misaligned teeth which have caused eye infections and monthly trips to the vet for teeth burring. He has also been on pain killers (Metacam) for the last 18 months. Despite all this, as far as I can tell he's had a happy and enjoyable life.

His health has gradually deteriorated, much more so in the last few weeks. He is currently loosing weight (about 5 grams per day) and currently weighs 198 grams down from a peak of about 250. His eyes are sometimes closed up and he isn't eating as much as he should.

His belly is swollen which the vet thinks may be either liver failure or a lack of protein, which does seem to be helped by a high protein diet (almonds). The swelling seems to get better then worsen on a daily basis and does seem to cause him some discomfort.

He has a pretty good life. He has the run of the house during the day and spends his time wherever he likes. Sometimes on the window ledge in the sun, sometimes near a hot water pipe. Anywhere warm is his favourite

I work from home, so I get to spend a lot of time with my degus, so he gets lots of care and attention. Over the last couple of weeks I've been giving him extra care to try and get him to eat more and monitor how he's doing.

He still does normal degu things like cleaning himself, rolling in sand baths etc which makes me think he's basically happy?

I'm worried he may be hungry or quietly suffering in some way. His breathing becomes laboured if he exerts himself but other than that he doesn't seem distressed.

I'm really trying to make a judgement as to whether life is worth living for him. In the last few days the balance seems to be shifting in favour of final trip to the vets, but despite his problems he still "gets about a bit" and sleeps in his favourite places.

I know my vet would have no objection to having him put to sleep now but I want to make sure he gets the maximum number of days lying in the sun or by the radiator as possible before it's time to go. I also would much rather he were able to pass away quietly in familiar surroundings (wouldn't we all) rather than suffer the stress of a trip to the vets and being handled by strangers in his final hour.

He has a sprightly friend (Houdini) who will be left on his own when he goes.

I know that only I can make the ultimate decision as to the right time, but any insights as to how to tell when that should be would be much appreciated. I just want to do the best for my little friend

Thanks

Simon.

[deguconvert]

I am more inclined to consider 150 grams the beginning of under weight. So in my opinion, he is still within acceptable parameters. I agree with Smux, give him some more time yet, while keeping and eye on him. It would be wonderful if he suddenly did a complete turn and returned to full good health. I hope you will see improvement and be able to enjoy a lot more time with him. Please let us know how you are both doing.

[simong]

Thanks guys.

My inclination is to delay the inevitable for as long as possible whilst making sure he isn't suffering unduly. Your advice confirms what I was thinking and it's useful to know that I'm not being obviously misguided by prolonging his life at this point.

I'm reviewing his situation on a roughly hourly basis :/ but the figure of 150 grams seems like a good benchmark.

He seems worse this morning than yesterday but still getting about.

There is sadly, no chance that he's going to turn around and make a recovery.

Snugglesafe seems like a great idea but my microwave died a couple of days ago - also sorely missed so not sure I'll get another one sorted out in time.

Thanks again for your comments, will let you know how things go :/

[nuttz]

sorry to hear about mr p´s problems, these decisions never come easy, i know as i am also debating the same thing for my old dog, in our case we have decided to give it a month and see how she goes, obviously taking day by day.
sorry i cant offer much help but i would be inclined to go with the advice already given but only you can decide whats best as you know him more than anybody!
i just wanted to add, you mentioned that when that day comes your preference would be that it was done in familiar surroundings, i completely understand what you mean.. i also want this for my dog and im considering asking the vet to do a home call, this way i know tanzy will gently fall to sleep in her home, with the people who love her most and snuggled on her favorite blanket. possibly this could be an option for you? im not sure of the costs, im sure it would cost a fair bit but every penny would be worth it, just to know ive done the right thing for her.
im keeping my fingers crossed for you and your little boy, i really hope that you have a few more months, possibly years left together, he is very lucky to have you!!!
take care and please let us know how you get on?!
nuttz xxx

[nuttz]

ok, this could be a really daft suggestion coming up but in regards to the snugglesafe, and the fact that simon hasnt presently got a microwave i was thinking..
could you not heat some rice up in a pan of boiling water, so that the rice is soggy but its still hard, drain off all the excess water and either put into a sock or onto a plate with a towel wrapped over?
if you did this you would have to be sure that the rice wasnt too hot, but a good, warm temperature but im sure simon would be careful about this!
just an idea?!

[nuttz]

**so that the rice is soggy but its still hard**

oops........... i supposed to say, NOT soggy, but still hard

[nuttz]

ps,

@ smux...
im not sure i have ever heard of another way to humanely put an animal to sleep other than a visit to the vets, or home visits?
im not sure that there is any medication that can be given other than one from a form of injection that would need to be skillfully administered into the vein, i think you would need some training to be able to do this yourself and i wouldnt advice this. i think the only option would be for a professional to do this.
i could be wrong but this is my thinking anyway?!

[simong]

Thanks for all the comments.

Just to clarify though, there really is *no* chance of recovery. The vet gave him 3 months to live and that was about 8 months ago. Not sure how old he is as he was a "rescue" but he's old enough and all things considered he's had a good run. It's really a question of hours and days from this point, certainly not months or years !

I have done some research about the feasibility of humanely putting him to sleep myself and this is a possibility (at least technically) but on balance, I'd probably favour taking him to the vet rather than risk distressing him by messing up the "procedure". I suspect getting the vet to come to me will be prohibitive. Fingers crossed that nature will take it's course peacefully.

Don't worry on the warm places front either, he has plenty of options. The window ledge, a patch of carpet made warm by the central heating, he really likes sitting on the power supply for my computer, he also likes getting behind the fridge and sitting on the compressor and he has a reptile heat pad in his cage

[nuttz]

sorry to sound stupid but im not the most intelligent of people admittedly, but by "prohibitive" do you mean difficult?

i guess that i and im sure alot of other people were just trying to be optimistic (i personally thing its a good thing, sometimes) about the amount of life left for your boy, its sad to hear that there so little time left, im glad that he has you to love and care for him, it sounds like you are doing a fantastic job!!!

[deguconvert]

Rather than using boiled rice . . . you could dry roast it to an appropriate heat on your cook stove. If you have a heavy pan that you can stir it around in, then you can get it heated, and then slip it inside a sock. What is nice about this is you can reheat it a few times at least, maybe even many, many times, and it won't increase in cost.

[moletteuk]

Everybody is different as to when they think the right time is, and each animal is different, so there really is no right or wrong in this.
If he is still looking after himself and getting about then I think it's fine to let him carry on. You can sometimes tell when they give up for themselves as they will stop eating, but this might be beyond the point when it would be kindest to have them PTS.
You can sometimes keep an old guy going for quite a bit longer if they seem otherwise happy by encouraging them to eat by hand feeding.
I hope you and Mr P can enjoy a few more happy days together.

PS for a cheap oven based heatpad, just stick a brick in the oven for a bit and then wrap in a towel.

[amie]

The vets I use, 'Manor Vets' adveritise on thier website that they will arrange home visits to put you animal to sleep in familar surroundings. I'm sure they're not the only vets that offe this.

www.manorvets.co.uk/

[simong]

Thanks again for all your suggestions. To answer a few questions.

nuttz: Prohibitive (in this case) means too expensive. Sorry, my badly constructed sentence didn't make this clear.

smux: The reason for the Metacam is that the roots of Mr P's teeth are growing upwards through his jaw and pressing on his sinuses and (I think) even his eyeball. This causes him to paw at his teeth and nose fairly often and also causes sinus infections. Sometimes he will have red or pink "froth" / mucus all around his left eye. We have this pretty much under control now with occasional antibiotics (Ornicure) and a drug called Bisolvon which thins the mucus to help him clear it from his sinuses.

As said, I think he has a happy life and wants to be alive, but not a day has gone past in the last 8 or so months when I haven't looked at him and wondered if it might have been kinder to put him to sleep.

Houdini (the surviving Degu) is a concern and one reason why we've wanted to keep Mr P going for as long as possible (ie just considering the overall welfare of both Degus). Sending Houdini off to live with someone else is simply not an option - I just couldn't do it. Neither is getting any more Degu's I'm afraid.

Houdini is extremely tame and will run across a room to be picked up. I work from home and spend quite a bit of time with him so I'm expecting that I will become his new best friend. It may not be ideal, but I think this will work out OK. Will have to play this by ear.

Update: Mr P is doing OK. His weight is down to 189 grams but he's still active. I'm fairly sure that the only thing he's eating at the moment are the "treats" I'm giving him (brazil nuts, almonds, sugar free peanut butter, carrots) and without those his weight would be a lot less. So far I'm happy that not having him put to sleep has been the right choice

[Jaiye]

Glad things seem to be going ok for the little guy =) Even if he is close to the end, at least he is still active and enjoying his favourite things.

Hope Houdini is ok!

[moletteuk]

I'm glad Mr P is doing OK for now. Have you thought about offering him some baby food, you can mix in sunflower oil, and/or wheat germ or oat bran? It's a favourite with geriatric hamsters anyway

[simong]

How time flies ... Mr P is still alive and has actually put on a little weight, although I'd say his health has deteriorated at the same time.

He's struggling more, wheezing more and generally looking very old and tired. He's still "fighting" and I think he still wants to live but it's a constant strain trying to decide what to do for the best.

This afternoon, he seemed to be struggling more than usual. His stomach was swollen, his breathing was laboured, his eye was covered in red foam, he's sneezing and pawing at his nose and he didn't look like he was having a good time. I made the final appointment at the vet for 7pm - or rather my girlfriend did - pretty sure I would have been unable to speak [sniff].

I've been observing him pretty closely for the last couple of hours trying to decide if I'd made the right decision and if he wants to go, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't. He's been running around a bit, snuggling up with Houdini, he still eats (if I offer him something tasty enough). I've had to conclude that despite his discomfort, he still wants to live ! (as would I, in his condition I think). So, I canceled the vets appointment and will re-consider the situation tomorrow.

So difficult

[kovu07]

I know this isn't what you want to hear, and i'm sure my opinion is different from many others. But I don't think you're being very fair to Mr P, from what you describe he is in a lot of pain and maybe it would be fairer to let him go.

[Cherpi]

So sorry for you and Mr P, I hope that he could maybe some how turn around, it doesn't sound like he is having fun but I wouldn't say it's the end just yet. Good luck! Hope something good happens

[lorrainekuk]

Oh this is such a sad story and we all know it will be a sad ending too :-(
I really admire that you are trying to do your best for him and he sounds so loved and also sounds like he has had a happy life too. I really hope that things work out for the best, although it seems you are close to having to make a very difficult choice :-( best wishes.

[deguconvert]

Oh Simong! I hate that feeling. Our elderly miniature poodle was put down 18 days ago, and I had been watching him and watching him, wondering when the day would come that we would have to go to the vet for the last time. It wasn't a call I could make, I had to leave that to my husband because Teddy was well and truly his dog. They were buddies for 14 glorious years that went by way too quickly. I understand well the daily evaluation, and my heart breaks for you. You have been so kind and compassionate, and I suspect you love him deeply. I'll be thinking of you.