Advice/help wanted

[crazyowl]

My daughter has kept rats for a number of years and has now expressed a strong interest in Degas. Unfortunately 2 of her rats are now showing signs of lumps and they are too old to be operated on so we are not sure how long they are going to last. We are looking for a breeder in Essex(Chelmsford)/Kent as I am wary of buying from pet shops as they never seem to know enough to offer advice for a 1st time owner.
The cage she has for her rats is 3 storeys and metal, I understand I will need to add ledges of wood to stop problems for their feet, but was wondering would it be suitable for Degas we have had 5 rats live in it happily before. I would be grateful for any advice/help in this matter and I am not looking to getting Degas immediately but I want to research them before saying yes and then changing my mind if I think they are not suitable.
She is a very mature 14 year old, (who loves animals and wants to be a vet) when we last got her female rat from a private breeder she expressed an interest in the possibility of breeding rats and on questioning her further she was told that if she did decide to then to contact the breeder again and she would help her chose a suitable mate.
Sorry this is so long and rambling many thanks in anticipation of your help.

[smux]

Feel free to buy them from anywhere as the advice she and you will need will come from here as and when needed. Pets @ home is a good store for buying their accessories but I'd be wary of trusting them for advice. Degus are a very specialist pet to own because of the many pitfalls when looking after them, and as such a pet shop owner who tells you "guinea pig food is fine, and give them a peanut as a treat" should be shot :-)
(in truth, guinea pig food IS fine, but there's types that are and types that aren't...any containing sugar or many seeds/nuts, for instance, would be bad for a degu, and peanuts ARE fine as a treat but a very rare one because of their fat content)

Your 3-storey cage might be enough for them, find out the exact width/height/length dimensions and we'll let you know...degutopia (useful site) has a calculator which will tell us how many degus you can have in the cage (2 minimum always though, they're social creatures).

If you weren't as far from me as you are, I might have popped down with a couple of my guys so you could see what they're like and see if it persuades you either way. However, I'm pretty sure you'll fall in love with them given enough of a chance, they're nothing like rats personality-wise and they will warm to you very quickly and you'll feel the bond :-p
If she is planning to be a vet for sure (rather than just wanting to) then getting a degu will be a definite test of her skills in such a job because of the specific care and attention they need...it's not that it's time consuming or anything, you just have to watch what you feed them and watch all sorts of aspects of their care.

The best way to research degus is probably to read through the posts here and to look on youtube. Also, Chloe at Degutopia (if she has the free time) will have you and your daughter as a guest at her place for a few hours (she calls it a training course) and she'll talk you through the many aspects of looking after degus, she does this for free to improve the lives of degus. You might get lucky and find someone else here who is in your area and who would be happy to have you visit and see their degus, but you could go visit a Pets @ Home just as easily, remember...just don't ask the idiot staff for any advice (okay, they're not all idiots, but if you read this forum long enough you start to think so :-))

I got my degus from preloved, but you will probably be better off looking in the adoption section of this forum, and it shouldn't cost you anything except the cost of picking them up. If you then decide that they're not for you then putting them back up for adoption is an option.

[crazyowl]

Many thanks smux, I would rather not by any animal from any pet shop, one of her rats was 'rescued from a pet shop as it was alone in a cage. Failure is not an option, if she gets them she will keep them as she is very commited and would not admit failure. Yes becoming a vet is a true wish for as long as I can remember. I will try to contact chloe as I am ok with her rats in the cage but I can not touch them (silly I know)

[smux]

If it's a fear then you may find that degus are better pets than rats again, I've found them to be more able to keep themselves to themselves and live in their own group, it feels sometimes like we're an intrusion on their world, although I am sure others will disagree. I have 3 groups of degus (2 are adoptions from here) and only my own ones have ever badly "needed" me for anything, the other two groups (two males, three females) all are content in their cage with the odd wander out (I let them wander free, you don't have to and many owners don't) to keep them active. BTW, it's possible that older degus are the ones that keep to themselves, as my own 4 were bought as pups under 6 months old while the other groups are 2 years old :-)

Also, as much as you may not like to touch them, they don't like to be touched or held either...it takes a lot of time and trust for a degu to sit in their owner's hand and even more trust to eat while in it, so you'll probably have no problems there. Probably the only time you'll have to hold them is if they escape, but prevention will stop that from happening, obviously.

I would say try her with two+ female adult degus. You will probably find them to be the most appropriate (you don't want to know what male degus get up to together or alone, with or without females present) as adults are less work than pups...however, if she is insistent that she wants pups it is a good idea if she wants them to bond well with her. Also make sure she knows that degus live a LONG time if looked after well.

If you get the degus from pets @ home you could consider it a rescue from the harsh clutches of the evil tyranny that is the pet shop...but if you're insistent, you could find a few people here who might know a breeder or you can try preloved. However, caveat emptor, I had NO warning that my babies had congenital cataracts and the breeder also gave me 1 female and 3 males when I asked for 4 males (it happens, very difficult to sex degus) PLUS I think he lied about their age by a month or so...that or they entered puberty at the human equivalent of 10 :-)
My point? Breeders aren't always in it for the health of the degu, a lot of them are in it for the money...one litter every year per female (if they stick to that rule of one pregnancy a year rather than doing it every 90 days) is maybe £150 at £15 each and the cost of looking after the pups and the rest of the brood over that time is a lot less :-)

I'd say get to see one at Chloe's or at Pets @ Home (even if you don't intend buying there, they usually have some in stock...and you might fall in love with them there and then :-)) and decide from there. Of course, as I said before, adoption is the best option unless she really wants pups, so if you go in there knowing that if they're the right animal then you'll get elsewhere then you might be able to get out of there without purchasing :-)

[crazyowl]

This is why I joined this forum. She has looked into them a bit, but at the moment it is more fact finding on our part. I want to m ake sure that I know what they need as well as her. She is aware of the life span but I am not sure what else. When we have decided I will make her research a bit and see what she comes up with and I will know if it is correct what she is telling me.

[crazyowl]

Thanks again smux for all your advice, after some research and much careful thought I think it is highly likely that she will indeed be looking for Degus. She has already seen them at pets at home and likes them alot as for the behaviour of the males then that is not a problem she has seen that sort of behaviour with her male rats (when she was 8!!!!) She will probably want the babies and I have spoken with someone else on here who got his from a place near us so we will be off to see him some time soon as aparently his is very helpful and knowledgeable.
As for resueing them from the pet shop that will likely come a bit down the line when she has convinced us that the 2+ she already have need some more company.
Another query if we made a strong sturdy run could they go outside in the summer for a run around on the grass? Not left overnight just for a few hours at a time.
Thanks again
Jane

[smux]

It is something I have asked here in the past, and there's no definite answer. If the ground is hard enough underneath (most gardens in the UK are) then they should be safe on the outside. If you want to err on the side of caution, using turf on top of paving slabs with the run around it would be a very good idea but remember that it needs to be fully enclosed (they're climbers) and there needs to be shady areas in case they don't want to be out in the sun. Saying all that, they aren't really fans of grass, being from Chile they're more used to sandy areas, so a layer of chinchilla dust on paving will suit them better, however don't let that dissuade you from considering your original idea as they will probably get as much enjoyment out of it...just it's a lot of work to keep them safe.

Also would be a good idea to supervise them always while outside, not just because of them escaping, as cats and wild animals would find a degu tasty and even if they couldn't get to them they'd easily scare them.

The run should have plenty of toys, although no need for anything fancy...perhaps some logs (safe wood, of course), things to climb on or through, the usual stuff...a chinchilla nesting box or two would also be good for them to rest in if they decide to (also good for shade) and they're easily picked up for under £10 (I just bought 2 on eBay for £17...£7 each plus postage).

It's also possible to grow grass IN their cage and have it come up through the mesh in the floor (although you should have the floor covered with something, you could have a section where it isn't and the grass grows up through the mesh)...you don't have to go with standard grass, you can get timothy grass seeds or even herb seeds as they love fresh herbs :-)

Degus also like sunlight on its own just as much as free reign outside, possibly more...they're not big fans of draughts or wind so if it gets windy out they'll not be happy, but if you put their cage by a window (with part of it out of sunlight so they have a choice) you'll probably find some or all of them come over to the sunny spot and laze about in the sun (mine do, and I know some other people here have degus that do too) so although it's an option if it's too much work for you then it's just as good for them to be indoors and in sight of the outdoors as they're not as stir-crazy as cats when it comes to the outdoors :-)

Any other questions, feel free to ask...I'm sure other people will respond even if I don't.

[housejohnson]

I'll toss my two cents in here as I made a few mistakes with my degu's when I first got them because the guys selling them at the pet store were criminally ignorant.

One thing I would caution you about on the grass, and I found this out the hard way years ago when I raised rabbits, is you never know what is on the grass/ground. Anything from pesticides, car fluids, alcohol (maybe that is just in the rotten neighborhood I live in). When I take mine outside to get some sun I usually take them in a small run about cage that is portable.

On cages too I would like to caution you, and I may have missed it if you have already answered this, is make sure that the bottom of the cage is not plastic, or if it is that they cannot get to it. They are avid chewers and will gnaw their way out of a cage very quickly, also if you use a plastic water bottle make sure it is outside of the cage, as they'll eat that as well (mine ate the side out with water in it...silly girl)...basically, they are going to eat anything you put in the cage with them, or at least gnaw on it.

I, myself, and someone can disagree with me if they like, buy glass/ceramic birdhouses at the end of the summer (when they are on sale) and use them for hide boxes inside their cages, that way they have something to sleep in and I do not have to replace it every week, I also have one degu, Damian, who loves sleeping in an old metal spaghetti sauce can.

Some of the things I have done to make them have a more active cage, and not spend a lot of money, was to make them tunnels out of old soup cans (make sure there are no sharp edges) and stuff the cans inside an old sock...it made like a covered area that they could run in and sleep in, and I hung it from the cage using an old wire coat hanger (again, making sure no sharp edges). I also recommend a glass feeding bowl, they'll eat a plastic one. I also make hammocks for them to sleep in by taking dollar store bandana's and tying the four corners to the roof of the cage, which is again an affordable option and it is not like they care whether or not you bought the hammock from the pet store or made it yourself.

If your cage does not have a pan around it to catch bedding/food expect to vacuum up a mess rather often, as degu's love to rearrange their houses and mine, I believe, just like to see me clean up after them.

I have kept both rats and degu's and I will say that rats are far more social, degu's take a lot of work to socialize and honestly, will be more of a sit and watch them pet than pick them up and cuddle, but on the positive side degu's stink significantly less than rats..rats, to me, seem to have very strong waste, sort of like a rabbit.

Anyhow, my two cents.....

[smux]

Jul 16, 2010 0:54:22 GMT housejohnson said:

I have kept both rats and degu's and I will say that rats are far more social, degu's take a lot of work to socialize and honestly, will be more of a sit and watch them pet than pick them up and cuddle, but on the positive side degu's stink significantly less than rats..rats, to me, seem to have very strong waste, sort of like a rabbit

(I won't comment on everything, don't worry...everything else you said is personal opinion, there's no right or wrong as long as the degus are safe and I am sure yours are :-P)

Degus can be more social, it depends entirely on their history with you. I've had degus for only a few months now (I think it's my fourth month) and my four guys I've had since they were about 4 months old are very friendly with me and the flatmate, they'll climb all over us and they're very interested in socialising with us...not to say that they can't socialise amongst themselves, they just enjoy our company too.

Dante/Elsevier on the other hand, they're friendly boys but they take a bit more coaxing to get interested in any of the huggy stuff and they'd rather use us as a stepping stone to escapesville, probably mostly because they know we'll let them escape and run about the room which they love to do.

The 3 girlies are the exact opposite of the original guys, one of them is exceptionally timid and she regularly gets into alert mode (complete with squeak) in the middle of the night, so I take things very slowly with them and hope that my kindness and regular treats (always ensuring all 3, even the timid gal, gets a treat) will pay off in the long run, it has done so far as they do come over when I open the cage but they're not always sure if they want to or not...I also don't pick them up and socialise with them much, although I do talk to them often so they get more used to me. When I do take the girls out they try to escape at the first chance they get, even jumping from me when I am standing up with them, so I have to be very careful...however, if I let them free in an enclosed space (hallway has doors and there's not much space out there) then they'll do a little exploring then come over to me and climb up onto my shoulder because they know I'll take them back to their cage once I'm done with them. When I first used to put them in the hall they used to grind their teeth (so I'd make sure they got back to their cage quick, I didn't want them to worry for too long) but that's stopped now they're better acquainted with me.

The boys and girlies are 2 years old approx, the guys are a lot younger...so if you get them as pups and they've been regularly handled as pups by the breeder then you'll find they're very sociable (I am hoping they will be into old age, but if they calm down as they get older then so be it) while those who have been left to their own devices for too long each day will be a bit less interested in socialising with you, and even less so if they have a lot of brothers or sisters to socialise with.

There is no cuddle with degus though, the closest I get (and this is with all 4 of the guys and sometimes with the boys and girlies but not often) is a little rub with my cheek against their body while they're on my shoulder, and the odd kiss or two, and of course the degu equivalent of acceptance, the groom...a couple of the boys like to groom my earlobe by biting it...and they ALL are interested in grooming cuts or scratches especially if it's recent, it's their way of saying they care for you as much as you care for them. I guess it's a case of understanding the degu's actions and training them to understand yours, I believe mine know when I'm being affectionate towards them :-)

[malteser60]

I thought I would share my observations so far (had my two girls for 2 months now, prior to that I didn't even know what a degu was.

From what I read, and observing my two, it seems that degu's personalities are very varied, ranging from the very timid and shy, to grumpy, to overly friendly. My girls, for example, were never shy, even when I first got them. Nutmeg was very happy to be picked up and rubbed, although I put that down to the fact that she had congenital cataracts so she may have been less aware of her surroundings. In fact the only time she does her alarm squeeks is when I open the back door and she smells the outside. Cinnammon, on the other hand, was not shy, but very reluctant to be picked up or go onto my hand. She'd happily come up to my hand, sniff it, nibble it, but not go on it. Now, through her greed for treats, she's very happy to run all over me.

So whilst on the one hand yes, degus are not very 'cuddly' animals, nevertheless I get so much pleasure from playing with them. I try and take mine out most nights as they love running about, even more than treats! I'm lucky as they don't gnaw things, only a small testing nibble every now and then. Mine prefer to climb all over everything. I've also found that every so often they will run over to me as if to make sure that i'm still there, although they haven't gotten to the stage yet of climbing onto my shoulder (I'd love that). Also training them to do that with treats has helped (well, wasn't so much training as greed on their part ) I just love watching them get so excited at being out, clambering over my bike, and trying to figure out different ways of climbing on top of stuff. Mind you I still manage to cuddle mine a bit whenever I pick them up to go back into the cage. They'll happily stay in my hand and i'll give their face a rub with my nose and give them a kiss. Also when mine are in the cage I regularly go over and say hello. They always run up to the side of the cage, give my fingers a nibble, and say hello in their own way, before going back to the wheel.

Essentially what i'm trying to say is that degus have got a personality of their own, and it depends on the type of relationship you develop with them. Also how you furnish their cage, etc all depends on you and your wallet, as long as you follow some golden rules (others please add if I've forgotten any):

• Make sure the cage and base are all made out of metal, not plastic as they will chew through it. The alternative is to make a cage out of wood (almost like a shelving unit). NightWishRaven has created a fantastic tutorial on this.
  
• Make sure the base of the cage is solid, not mesh, as they can get bumblefoot.
  
• If you are making your own toys with wood make sure it's not toxic to them. Degutopia has a good list of non toxic woods and how to treat them before putting them in the cage.
  
• Make sure the cage is big enough. Again Degutopia has a cage calculator.
  
• Depending on your own personal taste and wallet you can make their sleeping hut either out of wood, glass, ceramic, cardboard, or metal. Again, I wouldn't recommend plastic as they will chew it and swallow it.
  
• Make sure you get adaquete bedding - no wood shavings due to the dust, or biological cat pellets (despite what P&H may say). My recommendation is Finacard as it is only about £13 and comes in a huge sack that will last about 6-7 months. Also one thing i've noticed, degu cages barely smell at all! Nowhere near the stink my boyfriends rats would produce.
  
• They have a particular diet due to their tendency to get diabetes. So no sugary food, including things such as carrots and fruit, although they can be given as occasional treats. I give mine the P&H pellets as their main feed. I like it because it rates quite highly in the research that Chloe has done over at Degutopia and it is uniform, so no selective feeding. Then I complement their diet with other foods such as herbs, grass, flowers, and veg. Again there is a list on Degutopia of foods, veg, and flowers that are good for them. (It is ever so cute watching a degu eat a rose petal)
  
• Hay! Lots of fresh hay. Degus are grazers, their digestive system is adapted to this so they will need to graze on hay. Also high has a high proportion of silicone which is essential to keeping their teeth nicely filed. Make sure it's always fresh and off the floor. Most people have a hay rack. I put mine in a big bowl on the floor as they love to rummage in it that way. And I give them a handful of fresh hay every morning. Timothy has is the best I think as, apparently, it's tastier and better quality than the normal hay.
  
• And finally a good vacuum cleaner. Because if the bottom is not enclosed you're going to spend the rest of your degu's life cleaning up after them. They are champion bedding and poo flickers!
  

Hmm, can't think of anything else at the moment. All can say is that degus will win you over, their personalities are so amazing and interactive. I love them.

Good luck with your choice of degus, and please do come back and ask any questions you have. The people on this forum are amazing and we all care and love our goos and want to help anybody else with their's.

[smux]

Jul 16, 2010 11:45:21 GMT malteser60 said:

[/li][li] Make sure you get adaquete bedding - no wood shavings due to the dust[/quote]

Lots of wood shavings you can buy are dust extracted, and I've recently bought a huge bale of wood shavings from P@H for a little under £13 that will last me probably 5-6 months and that's with 3 cages to clean weekly :-P

[emz]

I always use dust extracted wood shavings and they work a treat never had any issues. Wood shavings use to be dusty about 5 - 10 years ago from proper pet retailers but now it has improved, so I always find the "don't use it as it is dusty" to be a bit of an outdated sentiment. Buying random bales from farmers can be quite sharp and dusty though as my mum found out when she got some for their guineapig, so she now gets the pets at home stuff also as it is very soft and not dusty at all.

[DegutasticJen]

Regarding the degus are not sit there and cuddle animals, again its just due to personality as my girls love to just come and sit up with me on the sofa and snuggle up and are quite happy to just sit there with me, also i have an older male who also loved to just sit and snuggle with me. I find the older they are the more likely they are to sit and snuggle but every degu is different.

I also use wood shavings from p@h and never had a problems very soft, just right for my lil babies :-)

[crazyowl]

Thanks again for the great advice folks it is nice to know we can use wood shavings as with the rats we have avoided them as it can cause breathing problems, in fact one of our present rats was adopted from pets at home due to her breathing problems and the fact she was a biter. (No problem since we have had her I think it might have been due to an inexperienced handler) Nice to know about the herbs and other ideas about the tins/boxes, we have used boxes before but not the tins. My husband has always tried to enrich the cage by adding bits of wood and natural rope for climbing chewing. There cage is going to be near me so it is great not to much of a smell the rats are sometimes terrible. Talking to them in the cage and giving them treats may be the extent of my interaction with them as it is with the rats.

[smux]

You say natural rope...I think it was Emz who mentioned Sisal rope she got in a B&Q, it's the stuff they use for cat scratching posts and may be the rope you already use.

And you can use the same stuff you use with the rats (probably) if you prefer. If you're happier with wood shavings, you can get a bulk deal of both wood shavings and hay (I'm talking 5 big bales of 2kg each, you might need to find space) for about £10 each on eBay....I can find the links if you need them. If you want to be super-nice, use bedding in their house, but they'll be just as happy with wood shavings, hay or toilet tissue.

[malteser60]

Hehe, shows how long it's been since I've used wood shavings, quite a while ago for my hamsters. What I reallly meant to say is to use bedding that is dust extracted as the dust can cause breathing problems.