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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 16:16:33 GMT
Yes, dried nettle roots are safe. I assume that you have seen the Rosewood Naturals Dandelion & Nettle Roots? This is something I also want to order. JR Farm also has nettle roots on their own.
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2011 17:40:19 GMT
Energy-rich food and monitoring the weight of your degus This is mainly in response to Ady's question about the amount of oilseeds and maravilla's and davx's responses. Forget about the values given on the Degutopia diet page. As davx wrote, there is no serious source. Quite frankly, these numbers are made up and nonsensical. I give you a good example for this: Degutopia says that protein levels of 15% and less and good for degus whereas concentrations of 18% are poor. Biologically speaking such a narrow range is utter nonsense. It is also obvious that the author doesn't even know that not all seeds are rich in fat and protein. Search with google for “degutopia + millet”, you won't find a match (you can also try it with other low fat/protein seeds). So rather than looking at such numbers, it is important to mare sure that our healthy and not too fat or skinny. It is good to weight them regularly because this will show changes faster than the visual impression. This is particularly important when changing their diet. This graph shows the weight of my two girls whose diet has been changed beyond recognition. In their first two weeks they got P@H nuggets, hay, some dried dandelion, plus a few treats (little did I know ). Today, in addition to hay they get about 50% dried plants and seed mix and 50% fresh greens. The changes were gradual and do not appear to have had any effect on their rate of weight increase.
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Post by davx on Sept 8, 2011 21:23:59 GMT
I lay it on flat stones or on the substrate. Then the degus pick it up.
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Post by davx on Sept 8, 2011 21:56:14 GMT
That was my first step in rethinking my degu nutrition. The second step was, that I realized, that there isn't all as bad. In the other hand is there a difference between the relaxed environment apropos natural feeding and the biased view we can see here, but I also met in several other communities of animal owners. In fact for me it was a big step to explore new ways with fresh green as main food. I'm familiar with this feeling of insecurity and doubt.
As I remember correct there is a limitation in the technical process: the fat content is limited to 30%, else they lose important properties for the production process. But the pellets can be coated with fat. Pellets are usually starch rich food.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Sept 9, 2011 1:17:55 GMT
@ Kat - From my limited experience I would suggest to have natural food and pellets in different bowls, at least for the beginning, so that you can better monitor what they are eating. I give dried and grains in one bowl (13 cm), but offer them increasingly for foraging. I have a hanging basket full of bedding hay (yes, the ladies have different hay for bedding and food ) and hide some of the natural food in there. Good idea Fred ! I have two seperate bowls for pellet feeds and plant/flower feeds but will most likely be using a large, flat clay plate for the seed mix...or as David mentions a large flat stone. David, it is reassuring to learn you also had doubts and fears about the natural feeding in past times, but that you were able to put those myths behind ;D Many owners have come to believe that degus should only be fed small amounts of fresh greens or dried herbs. I am so glad to be part of a community that will break free of these chains.
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Sept 9, 2011 3:49:27 GMT
In the Blog Section of the forum, I have made several posts about my varying levels of success at drying different herbs and veggetables. With the weather cooling down quickly and dropping below 10C at night, outdoor drying is not longer effective. I have started drying herbs in brown paper bags and have found this technique to work even better ! After arriving home from work today, I have found all the herbs to be dried and everything ready to be mixed. As Fred stated, this project aims for a 50% natural diet, so I realise this mix is far from complete and may be lacking variety. My degus have been eating herbs and flowers for a long time, but not in large amounts (certainly nothing close to 50% of diet) ! The mix I have created should last me about two weeks. After seeing the incredible mix Fred has created, I have a few ideas on how to improve my next mixture. As this is not a complete diet, the mix is backed up by the usual Versele-Laga pellet feeds and an unlimited amount of timothy hay. Here is my first attempt at creating a natural mixture for my degus. Mixture Ingredients- Dandelion leaves and stems - Sage leaves and stems - Basil leaves and stems - Savory leaves and stems - Mint herb leaves and stems - Common Parsley leaves - Flat-leaf (Italian) Parsley leaves - Aubergine - Zucchini - White Millet clusters - Red Millet clusters - Wheat Germs - Rolled Oats - Quinoa seeds - Pumpkin seeds* - Dehydrated Carrot slices* - Dried Green Peas - Chopped Timothy Hay - Chamomile flowers* - Calendula flowers - Raspberry leaves* - Peppermint leaves* * small amount Will be posting about the mix in my Journal/Blog as well. I am open to advice and/or suggestions ! Jordan
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Post by fred on Sept 9, 2011 14:17:59 GMT
This mix is absolutely amazing, Jordan!! Until last night I had no idea just HOW different the situation in North America is. I spent several hours to find some products that resemble the ones I found here. In the end I came across just a single one, which had less natural ingredients (like the one at the bottom of my list), and that at a ludicrous price The 50% natural nutrition project clearly has a different dimension on your site of the pond. Going into a shop around the the corner to buy two bags and throw them together is one thing. Collecting and preparing all the stuff that is in your mix, is quite a different one You have my admiration!!
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 9, 2011 14:56:09 GMT
Mine too!! It is very limited over here, frustratingly so!! You've done an amazing job, Jordan. I applaud you!
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Post by fred on Sept 9, 2011 18:10:07 GMT
More herbs in natural mixes?
This is a question for our German members. In most mixes I have seen, there are few, if any herbs included. When searching for individual herbs on deguforum.de, I often see the suggestion “in moderation”. Now degu owners in North America don't have the access to dried leaves and flowers in the same way we have here (and much more so in Germany). Herbs, however will be available everywhere and could make up a substantial part of natural mixes. Are there any reasons to advice against this?
From my own experience I can say that fresh greens currently make up 50 % of my girls non-hay diet, and when I do not have flowers and leaves available, this is made up of herbs. I usually give three or four different ones each day, including basil, chives, coriander, dill, mint, parsley, rosemary, sage, tarragon, thyme, and water cress.
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Post by fred on Sept 9, 2011 18:22:54 GMT
Requirement for supplements when feeding natural mixes?
This is another question for our German members. I think aya0aya raised an important point here. I am sure that when we feed the diverse mixes that apology72 and maravilla have presented, all vitamins, minerals and trace elements will be supplied in sufficient amounts. However, when we start out with our own more limited mixes, can we be confident that this is the case?
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Post by davx on Sept 9, 2011 19:00:23 GMT
Yes I had my doubts, but I looked to the rabbit owners. There was a vibrant discussion in a german rabbit breeding forum. They fed green (pasture including toxic plants) and it encouraged me to try it out too.
Btw. @jordan kitchen herbs are good enrichment for degu food, but I made the experience that most of them the degus feed on only in small quantities. Whats about clover, alfalfa or Oxalis species?
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Sept 10, 2011 4:32:04 GMT
@ Fred and Faith, thank you so much for the support. The only type of food mix I have found is hay enriched with herbs and flowers. But the amount of flowers and herbs in the hay mix comes no where close to what the degu needs daily. I have started using these hay mixes, simply to help enrich their diet a bit further.
I will be going to Montréal this Sunday and am hoping to find more ingredients there. I have been looking in many pet supply shops here and have found no flower/plant mixes. I am hoping to feed something in natural product boutiques, but if not I will continue doing what I have been doing this past week.
I have found that drying the herbs and plants in brown paper bags to work very well. It takes more time and it makes it harder to create a nutrient-rich mix, but it is still doable.
For the moment it is not possible for me to stop using Versele-Laga food, but I am very much hoping the natural food mix will enhance the overal diet of the degus.
Fred and David, the information about the various Fat/Protein contents of the different grains and seeds has really encouraged me to look more into this. The photo of Maravilla's degu eating seeds has also given me a few ideas.
I will be posting about this in a bit.
@ David Clover and Alfalfa is available to me throughout the warm seasons, but from November to May this becomes a problem. As for the Oxalis species, I know they are sometimes kept as outdoor plants, but I do not know where I could get a hold of these.
Will be keeping my eyes open though !
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Post by NightwishRaven999 on Sept 10, 2011 5:33:07 GMT
As a continuation of my previous post, I have assembled a small mix made up of the following ingredients; Quinoa White Millet Red Millet Sesame Seeds Sunflower Seeds Dried Peas Basmati Rice Pumpkin Seeds I realise Sesame and Sunflower seeds are high in fat...so they are being fed in smaller portions. Something I have been asking myself about is rice. We have not discused the nutritional value or suitability of brown rices, and I would very much like to hear more on the subject. I will be out shopping for a larger variety of seeds, hopefully I will find a suitable bird seed mix. I have also come across large bags of grass seeds and will be investing in this soon. My degus have always been relatively light (around 190-200 grams) and I am hoping that a regular feeding of seeds and grains will help them gain a bit of weight. Would love to hear about the different types of rice and their usefulness in the degu diet !
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Post by davx on Sept 10, 2011 6:44:40 GMT
@jordan Yes clover and alfalfa is also here in Europe unavailable in the winter. In addition Oxalis species seems to need a warm climate, perhaps in Québec it is to cold? I couldn't see this species not before the first warm summerdays occur. But Oxalis species in general seems to be good species you can grow also indoors. Oxalis seeds you can perhaps get here: www.chileflora.com/Florachilena/FloraEnglish/ESeeds.htm?G_LANG=EI already bought there several other Chilean seeds from fodder plants, degus and chinchillas are eating.
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Post by Kat on Sept 10, 2011 19:59:41 GMT
Yes, dried nettle roots are safe. I assume that you have seen the Rosewood Naturals Dandelion & Nettle Roots? This is something I also want to order. JR Farm also has nettle roots on their own. Yes this is what I was looking at. All of your mixes look brilliant. I thought that I would have to persuade him but my partner is very keen on this diet. He always complains about the money I spend on degu food and treats however he's quite happy for me to place an order for dried natural foods. YAY I am aiming to collect, grow and dry as much as I can myself. I have started the drying process on a few things from my garden. I'm kind of sad that I don't have nettles though. I have also planted some seeds. In the hopes of growing and drying some of my own ingredients. The seeds I have planted are: sunflower, wild strawberry, dandelion and timothy grass. Can anyone recommend some good veggies to dry. I haven't tried to dry these before so am looking for some tips. Would butternut squash be a good candidate for this. Every time I search for this "squash" comes up but I'm quite sure that they are different. Am I right? Kat x
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Post by fred on Sept 10, 2011 20:15:12 GMT
I don't quite understand the difference (if there is one) between sqash and butternut squash either. It may be important if there is a difference in sugar content. I am currently drying courgettes, aubergine and marrow (which is also called squash??). I have had them for two days on the heater and they are almost done.
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Post by fred on Sept 10, 2011 22:08:26 GMT
I was in a large garden centre today and got some more ingredients for my mixes. For the seed mix I bought two bags of bird food, ChapelWood Finest Finch Food - yellow millet, panicum millet, canary seed, red millet, naked oats, linseeed, niger seed and other small seeds (left), and ChapelWood Finest Sparrow Food - black sunflower, wheat, yellow millet, maize grits, red millet, red dari, naked oats and other small seeds (right). The latter contains more oilseeds, so I am currently mixing these 2:1 (bottom), but can adjust if weight changes require it. I also bought a bag of Rosewood Naturals Nature's Salad (oat flakes, wheat flakes, marigold, parsley, red beet, alfalfa, dandelion, pea flakes, carrots, nettle, plantain, wheat, burst wheat, burst maize, edible leaves, cornflowers, rose petals, peppermint, maize flakes, melissa, red clover). The amount of flakes and burst cereals are really low, and because this mix contains such variety, I find it actually quite good. In the bird section I came across Rosewood Naturals PICK 'N' FLY which has already proved very popular with my two girls.
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Post by deguconvert on Sept 11, 2011 3:36:43 GMT
Those look so good! I'm finding it really hard not to be envious of the range of products you have in the UK and Europe.
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Post by Maravilla on Sept 11, 2011 8:19:37 GMT
@ Fred, your mixtures look just wonderful!! It's really interesting to see where suitable ingredients can be found!! What are your ladies saying about them? Do they still eat their nuggets? Please tell us. What about hay consumption? For the others: Fred, Apology and I talked about this before. Hay is often seen as essential and important in degu nutrition, but it seems that lots of degus nourished with natural ingredients don't eat so much hay. I only see my degus eating hay when I offer fresh one; then they are looking for the herbs.
@ Kat, you can dry tomatoes, carrots, tubers of Jerusalem artichoke, zucchini, aubergine and pepper. I would strongly recommend to try it with small amounts to see if your degus really eat and tolerate them. There a lots of degus who don't like veggies and others have problems with them as they can provoke some sort of diarrhea.
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Post by davx on Sept 11, 2011 12:22:59 GMT
Good point, hay as staple food is a questionable topic. But I also think it is more important to enrich the diet first.
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