|
Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 9:24:36 GMT
Yeah, she does seem incredibly wound up right now. I think it's the fact that there are so many others in the vicinity, and she has not had a place of her own for a bit. Her main activity right now is scoping out the barrier and keeping guard. I'm actually thinking that it might be better to swap her now than like in a week's time. Best to get it over with and then let things calm down, as it were. She is young and spunky, I'm much more convinced that she can take it than if Pulla can keep up with her just climbing up to stare at him and riling up trouble. Since it looks like she'll need a lot of time to settle and calm down, there is no real value in them sharing a space that is smaller than what either could have otherwise, without having to stress about a neighbor.
Especially since Pulla is really bad about carrying a grudge and sulking about it. Keeping this up seems like it might just salt the earth for future attempts as well.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 11:59:07 GMT
I must confess that I'm honestly a bit worried for Pulla's wellbeing at this point. He's now had two situations in a rather short timespan where he has to keep up with a new degu being in his cage, and that degu being mean to him. The boy at least was amicable inside the cage and they had good times, but this situation has been really rough and actually kind of threatening to him. The girl is actually trying to bite him through the divider (or was, since she doesn't really have an opportunity any more). If either of them manages to pull down a blocker while nobody is watching, I think it's entirely possible I'll wake up to find that Pulla is missing fingers and/or toes (or his nose). And just mentally, this can't be good for him.
So I think I don't really have other good options than putting the girl in a separate cage for now. She can still be near others and all, but she clearly wants to be left alone for now and to just have a territory that she can be sure will remain hers.
Pipari has actually been really surprising through all this. Her cage is next to the girl, and when the girl came in, Pipari actually attempted to talk with her and all. She observed and just made social noises, no sign of any kind of aggression or even real discomfort at seeing an unfamiliar degu nearby. I'm actually starting to find it plausible that she might have evened out.
(I put a sheet between her and the girl pretty quickly since the girl seemed to also get really out of shape when she was moving nearby.)
|
|
|
Post by winic1 on Aug 14, 2023 13:16:29 GMT
I'm wondering if Pulla's health issues could be what is setting the new girl off so badly? If she can sense he has health issues, and in nature a sick community member could be a threat to the whole colony, is she so determined to get to him and do harm/drive him away/whatever out of instinct?
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 14:26:46 GMT
I'm not sure if Pulla's exact nature and situation affected her reactions at all, to be honest. She did not really have any time to inspect him. She came in, walked around confused in her cage for roughly ten seconds (genuinely, it was not more than that), and then came nose-to-nose with Pulla through the bars. She didn't inspect him, spend any time considering the situation or really even thinking about anything, she immediately growled, screamed and lunged at the bars. Then when I broke it up she ran up to the second level, saw Pipari coming to look at the commotion, and started sizing her up as well. I think she just really did not like realizing that there were others present.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 14, 2023 18:30:10 GMT
That's an interesting point, Winic, who knows how sensitive their smell might be to this kind of thing.
If you haven't already, I would go ahead and put the new girl in a separate cage and I would blank the other goos off from her vision too if possible. It's generally recommended to let a degu settle in before starting intros, so I think rewinding to this point is probably a good idea.
Pulla has had a lot of goos coming and going and causing him some upset, give him some time to get his confidence back.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 18:57:41 GMT
Yeah, we went ahead and just gave the girl her own cage. She is really worked up over everyone else, clearly, so she'll get to settle in peace. She can see Suti and Limppu across the room, but she does not seem to pay them much attention since they are so far away. It's probably still good if she knows that other degus exist in the area, as long as she feels that she is not forced to interact with them (my understanding is that this is kind of how degus exist in the wild as well, with large groups being divided into small "clans" that keep to themselves but warn each other of danger etc). So far she seems to be quite okay with things.
I did, however, swap her with Pipari. I really debated myself whether that would be wise, but if I had housed her in a new cage, someone would have to be in a different room, where they will be less around people and less around other degus. And since the larger cages won't fit there, the options would have been the new girl (name still under consideration) and Pipari, and I don't feel it's healthy to just estrange either of them. I also felt genuinely quite hopeful after seeing her react to things. So we went ahead and cleaned their cages and swapped them (that's a good long evening, right there; my asthma really didn't enjoy it!). I did decide, however, that I would absolutely take her out of there if it seemed at all like things would go bad.
So far, it's been really fine between Pulla and Pipari. Pipari has inspected Pulla a bit, but she does not seem to be spooked either by her different cage location (all the furnishings are her own, of course), or the fact that there's Pulla right on the other side of a divider. Pulla was quite tense at first and seemed quite defensive when she came up to the divider to inspect, but after some moral support from me, and realizing that Pipari does not seem to actually be doing anything, he has basically settled down to observing. There is also only one location in the cage where they have sight on each other right now, and it's not an area either has to go to for any crucial activities. So it's basically at their own behest and comfort.
I will of course keep monitoring the situation carefully, and I'm making sure to provide Pulla with moral support, but it's quite a surprise to see that Pipari has apparently just... gotten over her issues. If this was her in her teenage period, she would be rushing madly around the cage, probably falling off everything, and likely lunging at Pulla in mad panic aggression. At the moment she seems to be the calmest and most normal of the bunch, instead. I'll keep observing them, and will put a safety blocker in place for the night.
Pipari seems to be alternating between eating pellets and running in her wheel, as if things were totally fine. Pulla decided to go to sleep in an usual spot. It's astounding. Now it feels a bit stupid that I did not simply try this first, but I suppose I do not regret it too much either. The girl seems like a big personality of her own, and I'm sure that she'll be a fine family member, either together with someone or alone.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 14, 2023 23:37:48 GMT
The girl calmed down incredibly much after she got her own cage. She isn't pacing around madly any more or anything, just hanging around. Clearly the right call for her right now.
Pipari is also incredibly okay with suddenly moving to a different cage. She was excited at first, understandably, but after she charted everything out (I think she has genuine problems understanding space, so she basically has to probe everything out, though she has gotten a lot better at this over time) she just seemed to be happy with knowing where her wheel, food bowl and stuffed toys were. It's really cool how she seems to have her things in order now.
Pulla has been hesitant about Pipari, but he doesn't show aggression, merely gets nervous and protests if he thinks Pipari is coming on too strongly. He almost looks confused when she just goes away without actually doing anything bad, as if he has absolutely no plan for that. I strongly suspect that he will ease off on it if the situation stays like this. He's never really been the type to start anything, he just has a lot of trouble coping when others do. And Pipari seems entirely unconcerned when Pulla slaps at her a bit. She just goes away without reciprocating at all. He is very awkwardly jealous when I'm in front of Pipari's cage and interacting with her. He runs over and starts pawing at the door, demanding to also receive attention. He actually had to just climb onto my shoulder and observe the situation very carefully.
I think it may potentially be a good idea to take them out to the kitchen together if things keep like this for a couple of days. Pulla always seems to be the most defensive in his own cage, and much more neutral outside it. I think the important thing will be for him to become convinced that Pipari is no longer going to attack him. In a way, I'll also need to make sure that that is the case, since she is behaving so differently from her adolescence.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 15, 2023 8:35:00 GMT
I'm glad its going so well, but I really think you should wait at least a couple of weeks before you think about letting Pulla And Pipari meet. I just don't think Pulla is in the right frame of mind right now to give this the best chance.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 15, 2023 12:04:54 GMT
Yeah, that is very possible. I will definitely make sure that Pulla is actually comfortable with the situation and Pipari before proceeding anywhere with this. And you are right in that he needs to catch his breath.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 16, 2023 16:04:07 GMT
Pulla seems to have accepted that Pipari is at least not dangerous. He just sits next to her when she comes, and I've seen him press against the divider a couple of times as if trying to offer his chest for grooming. After the first night, they have not really needed the sight blockers any more, and both seem quite calm next to each other. It's good to see that his misgivings were not very deeply seated.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 16, 2023 19:40:55 GMT
Good
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 17, 2023 16:23:18 GMT
Man, they really want to see each other. They're each pawing at the divider and trying to groom through it. I've carefully lifted each to the other's door a couple of times, and each grooms the other like that. When I lift Pulla back into his cage, he runs to the divider and just paws it furiously. He really wants to meet her.
I think I have to let them out together soon. It really doesn't seem like Pulla needs time to unwind from his stress. It almost feels like he's getting stressed from not being able to actually meet her. Pipari is also just constantly hanging around him.
In other news, the girl (I think I will call her Kaneli, Finnish for cinnamon) has settled really well after being allowed her own space. It does seem like, however, that a lot of her bravery was kind of like a facade, like she was attempting to seem really tough since there were others around her. Now she's much more furtive. She's still really curious and active, but doesn't "stand her ground" nearly as much if I put a hand in. She doesn't fear me, but she isn't too keen to socialize just yet. I think it's a good thing that she doesn't have to pretend or try to be tougher than she is. That is obviously going to be really stressful and taxing, so it's much better if she's less brave but relaxed.
It also kind of seems like she has never had a wheel before. She did not seem to understand what it was when I put one in her cage, and it took her well over a day to get what it does. I also can't help but notice that she's quite small for her age (but as mentioned, not in pup proportions; she looks adult). I have no idea what kind of conditions she comes from, and of course she could just be a runt, but her behavior and physique make me think she might not have had the easiest life. Degus are becoming a bit of a thing in Finland, I've noticed, and I tend to see a lot of ads for degus, in this age bracket or younger, being given away "due to personal reasons." I don't know how her sister/cagemate died, and of course it could be a total freak occurrence or an accident, but it's all not adding up to a pretty picture right now...
I'd be happy to be proven wrong, of course. It's entirely possible that she comes from a happy and loving home that simply understood that it would be more responsible to have her receive a new home after they concluded that they would be unable to provide her with companionship again. I know nothing except that she was given away after losing her cagemate. I'm just thinking that the current evidence is, in itself, unfortunate. I also suspect that she has been alone for some time already, given that she's very accepting of human grooming. That's usually not something that degus with cagemates care for, and in my experience it tends to be a characteristic of degus that have been lonely for a time and have started to pine for any closeness at all.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 17, 2023 21:39:24 GMT
Well, I decided to allow them a short meeting since Pulla was genuinely looking really sad over not being able to meet Pipari. I figured that if he wasn't feeling up to it, he would not be literally banging at her door. Every time they met at the divider he'd run up to me afterwards and then up to his cage door, and back to me, as if telling me he needed to get out and see her. So I let them meet in the kitchen.
It went really well, all things considered. I think there's an issue in that Pipari really has trouble managing in a large space like that, so she was quite uncoordinated and could not focus on Pulla for long. She mostly met him when she just happened to run up to him. Pulla just waddled around in the middle of the room like usual. But every time they met, it went well! It was tentative and careful, but they mostly groomed each other and just hung around each other. There did not seem to be any personality issues, so to speak. Mostly it was that Pipari was quite uncoordinated, so her way of getting up to him and basically grabbing at him to inspect him closer (it's not aggressive, she's not even trying to push him around, she basically just... kind of fumbles for him and basically goes around until she makes physical contact) was quite scary for Pulla, and he often turned around to face her when it seemed that she was getting too personal. But she didn't do anything mean, so it was just within his tolerances. Pipari was actually the first to start grooming, and even if it looked kind of strange, Pulla enjoyed it and groomed her back.
I ended it quite early, since it felt like Pipari was really struggling to concentrate on the situation and I did not want Pulla to get nervous over it. I think the biggest issue will really be just to slowly get them comfortable and used to each other. I'm also considering whether it'd be better to just do it in the cage since Pipari seems way better about managing things within the smaller space. Pipari is quite unique in her own way, but I think that as long as Pulla understands that she's not being aggressive, he will not mind too much. He seemed really happy after the meeting in any case and went to sleep (it was later on during the evening anyway), and Pipari doesn't seem to mind the situation either.
It's still really hard to read Pipari at all, which is what I'm most concerned over usually. Pulla is easy to read, and he trusts me enough to communicate openly, but Pipari is... unique in her own way, and just doesn't have personal cues in the same way. She's so muted compared to the other degus, and it's really hard to see any clues as to what she's thinking. Combined with how she seems to genuinely struggle, cognitively, I'm mostly just worried that she'll panic over something, like she did when she was younger. But she seems to have genuinely become very good about not doing that.
(I find it really hard to say how she has troubles, exactly. I know she's not blind, and I know she's not deaf. It just seems like she has trouble recognizing and understanding things. She has obviously learned to cope with it much better, but it's always a bit sad not to really know what's going on with her.)
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 18, 2023 19:31:42 GMT
I'm glad it went well.
It sounds like it would be worthwhile figuring out a smaller neutral area, and letting her get familiar with that space. You could try one of their cages but I wouldn't want an avoidable misstep to set this back, especially if Pipari is difficult to read.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 18, 2023 20:15:13 GMT
I allowed them a short amount of time again today. It seems like Pipari was more cognizant of Pulla being there today and she seemed to cross paths with him much less randomly. It was still a bit fumbling at times, but they're making it work. I've seen no signs of Pipari being aggressive at all, at least. She also was a lot less pushy about the socializing. In fact, it almost felt like Pulla being there made her focus somewhat more on what she was doing. Usually when she's in the kitchen she's so amped up that she forgets to eat most of her seeds (and she's very food-motivated) in favor of rushing around. Now she was actually sitting with Pulla and eating seeds for a good while as well. It might be that since I had to change the order of things somewhat from what she's used to (since Pulla can't handle a tall sandbox or climbing around), she was quite confused and distracted yesterday. Things were the same today so she didn't need to find them the same way. I got a bit of video from their meeting as well. I notice that unlike the boy (and most other degus I've seen socializing), Pipari wants to offer the back of her neck instead of her chest for grooming. It actually took Pulla a bit to realize what she was doing. Maybe it's a more submissive/less competitive gesture? I haven't really seen her trying to get territorial at all. www.youtube.com/shorts/ICTsSlspB5wwww.youtube.com/shorts/2exOjtb3OIQI do agree that it's very important to make sure that some stupid situation doesn't set them on the wrong foot. It's part of why I've only let them meet for very short whiles. Pipari starts to get distracted and Pulla wears out easily from basically any situation with another degu where he feels like he's being surrounded, so slowly building trust is important. I was also thinking about possibly setting up a cage or an enclosure, but I think there's some risk in that as well. They're both familiar with the kitchen space, so there is probably less chaos and confusion than if I put them in an unfamiliar situation together, where she might just run over him (figuratively or literally). Kitchen seems to be working out for now, especially when I'm encouraging Pulla to stay brave, so hopefully we can use that.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 20, 2023 17:14:33 GMT
Today was a bit of a harder day, and they didn't mesh as well. It didn't really feel like anyone was being aggressive, but Pipari was quite chaotic again and had trouble concentrating on Pulla. She does this weird thing where she basically just puts hands or her nose against him and pushes at him. I don't think it's a dominance thing, or any kind of aggression, because she just seems excited and normal when she does it. It's more like she doesn't remember what to do, or is too excited to control herself at the moment. She also keeps pushing her head under Pulla, and just in general getting up into his personal space without really trying to socialize. Pulla started to clearly get annoyed and defensive over it, which is understandable. He even pushed back a bit. The good thing is that Pipari did not seem to really mind this or become worked up. She just looked generally somewhat confused about the situation.
There were moments when she did remember to groom him again, and Pulla was totally fine with that and tried to groom her back, but she kept running around. It felt like things were becoming a bit sour and Pulla was quickly getting exhausted with how chaotic it was, so I brought them back home. It's weird how it didn't really work out today. I suppose Pipari just wasn't really on top of her game today and did not have the faculties to keep focused on the situation. Luckily, it does not seem like this manifests in aggression or panic any more, like it did when she was younger. Just... general chaotic running around.
The unfortunate thing is, of course, that Pulla doesn't really understand what's going on and gets defensive. He doesn't really seem to have the energy to deal with something like that, and he just starts wanting to go home when the other party is being weird and pushy like that.
Pipari is usually much more calm in the cage. I'll have to think if I should try removing the divider for a short period. I'm somewhat worried that she'd be too excited over that as well, since Pulla's side of the cage would be new to her. Maybe it'd work out better if I let her explore Pulla's side (that is, just remove the divider) once or twice alone before doing it while they're in there together? I know it's not normally advisable to let degus into each other's cage, but I don't think territoriality is the problem here at all, and neither of them seems to really care too much about that. I just have to find ways to make this manageable for Pipari so that Pulla won't be overwhelmed with her antics.
(I think Pipari is actually rather taken with Pulla. After the first couple of kitchen meetings she built a nest right next to the divider and often comes over to see what he's doing.)
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 20, 2023 18:03:16 GMT
After things had calmed down a bit and Pulla seemed to have gathered himself (it really does wear him out when something like this starts to get to him), I lifted him up to meet her at her door. Things were a lot better in a familiar environment, and Pipari just groomed and hugged him for a while. Pulla was reserved at first, but started grooming back and ultimately everyone seemed a lot happier about things.
It's strange when the biggest issue doesn't seem to be anyone wanting to clash with anyone else, but rather that their interactions are simply challenging. But I'm sure that Pipari will learn to handle it better over time.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 21, 2023 1:25:05 GMT
Oh, and Kaneli (I'll start her own topic at some point) seems to be over her early nerves. When she came in, she was all fire and guts. Then when she got her own cage, she got a lot more furtive and shy. And yesterday she suddenly decided that everything was fine and she can trust all humans in here with her life. She has now become ridiculously cuddly and just stands still to be petted and groomed by us. It's just a bit ridiculous, I have never before seen a degu that will actually try to roll belly-up while being held so that she can get more attention. When I open her cage, she stands straight up (not just on her hind legs like they usually do, absolutely straight up like a small person) and just keeps standing there for many minutes while someone scratches her chin. I have not had any other degus that actually like being stroked while they're moving about, but she actually doesn't even flinch when I stroke a hand over her back.
She has also become a lot less defensive about other degus. I noticed her paying some attention to Suti and Limppu, whom she can see from her cage. And when I took Limppu out of the cage and handled her near Kaneli's cage (not on purpose, just due to needing to go past it and all), she observed but did not seem very bothered. It's quite stark how she has gone through a whole emotional rollercoaster in the span of one week. I'm really happy though, since she genuinely seems to have decided to trust us. And she is a real darling now. Just a totally different degu from when she came in.
It really does feel like she has not received a lot of... anything in her life previously, though. She's absolutely amazed and over the moon for whatever really mundane things, like some dried leaves. She snatches those up so quickly and eats them voraciously. In fact, she seems really horribly nervous about food in general, as if she's actually afraid she'll lose it. Any time she gets some treat or a couple of seeds or something like that, she basically sits on top of them and screams LOUD if anyone approaches her (she genuinely sounds like a piglet when she's like that). But in all other situations she's an absolute dear. I hope she'll be happy here.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 21, 2023 15:44:17 GMT
Good to hear Kaneli is settling in and chilling out Regretably, I think lots of pet keepers are focussed on what the pets can do for their happiness, rather than what they can do for the animal's happiness. It is a bit concerning that she is nervous about food quantity, especially as I think you said she is rather thin Hopefully, when she fully settles she may cope better with an introduction. I think given your descriptions of misunderstandings and confusion, I would carry on with shortish meets between Pulla and Pipari, I think this will give them to time to figure things out. I'm really not the intros expert, but I don't think trying a meet in one of their cages is a terrible idea, sometimes this can work if other considerations like familiarity trump territory in the particular degus. I think there is some merit in the short cage swap idea, maybe just for half an hour or so, so they can gain some familiarity with the space and you might be able to see if there is any dominance reaction when they get back in their own cage. It might be best to do that with a visual barrier in place so they aren't stressing about their own cage during the swap.
|
|
|
Post by teemu on Aug 21, 2023 16:22:11 GMT
Yeah, Kaneli feels just a bit of an unfortunate one. As I said, it'd be great if I was wrong, but her behavior just does not speak well of her history. She isn't so much skinny as she is just quite small in size, from head to tail and all that. I have not weighed her yet, as I don't want to stress her by taking her to the scale, but I had to really look at her proportions and general demeanor to decide whether I actually thought she seemed like a fully grown adult. Could be genetics, of course, but in any case she's obviously quite crazy about food.
But yes, it does seem to me that they would do much better on familiar ground. In her cage, where she knows how things are, Pipari actually behaves very much like a normal, and actually quite calm, degu. It's really quite noticeably how differently she acts outside the cage, in regards to Pulla and just in general. Since she is constantly begging to see him and often seems to be asking him to come over, I really don't think she will have an issue with a shared space. And every time another degu has been introduced into Pulla's cage, he only ever gets territorial and defensive if they try to push him around. Like when the boy came, he had no trouble at all with him being on the other side of the divider, or even when he was moving around on Pulla's side. So my hope is that if Pipari isn't in an environment that makes her act in that incoherent manner, she would likely not appear pushy, either accidentally or purposefully.
I'll have to order things around a bit, since Pipari's side of the cage is absolutely not fit for a limited mobility degu like Pulla (she's young and actually really strong, so she's totally fine with her cage having steeper verticality), and I'll let her settle into that before I start letting her get to know Pulla's side of the cage. Best not to rush it.
|
|