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Post by skittish on Nov 12, 2022 12:38:26 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm looking for advice to encourage appetite in a degu after surgery. Monty had a dental procedure on Tuesday afternoon for an overgrown spur and he has not regained his appetite. We are manually feeding critical care/nut butter/baby food mixture, but he is showing no willingness to take it or any treats or food offered to him despite being 4 days post op. He has shown signs of improvement in other areas. In the first 24 hours after the procedure he was very withdrawn and lethargic - sitting hunched up in the enclosure, salivating a lot and showing no chewing/swallowing motions when we fed him the CC mixture. Over the last few days he has been growing in energy and alertness (still not 100% himself, but a vast improvement over the first 24 hours), he is not salivating any more and he is chewing and moving his jaw when we give him the CC.
Despite this he is not eating independently. He is a degu that loves his food so this is incredibly unusual for him. Prior to the issue with his tooth he was consistently 300g. He dropped to 286g over 4 days prior to the dental and had a wet mouth. Since the dental he has now dropped to 269g.
He has had two previous surgeries - one when he was neutered, about 2 years ago, and the other a couple of months ago (for the same tooth spur). After his last dental it did take a little while for his appetite to return, but not this long, as he showed signs of gradually eating by himself in addition to the top up feeds we gave him.
At the moment he is taking treats and burying them but not eating them.
He has been passing faeces; they have changed in size and shape since the dental. Initially we saw no faeces whilst feeding him, but after 24 hours he started passing them again and they were very small and misshapen. At the moment they are still very small, but no longer misshapen.
I should also mention that he has a wound/lump on his hind leg. During the dental they took a biopsy of the lump and we are hoping to have the results by the end of next week. At this point we don't know for sure whether it is a growth that he has worried and caused to bleed, or if it is a bite which has become inflamed and swollen.
He is currently on Meloxicam (once a day), Baytril (once a day) and Emeprid (twice a day). Any advice or suggestions gratefully received. Thank you.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 12, 2022 14:11:29 GMT
I think the most logical explanation is that he is in some pain. They often need to really overextend the jaw to get access to do the dental, or did the vet mention if the spur had punctured any flesh? The baytril may indicate there was a puncture and some infection which can really affect eating, unless that was for the leg lump?
Depending on what dose of meloxicam he is on, you may be able to increase the dose, or it may be that he just needs another 2 or 3 days to turn around. It's not uncommon for them to take a week or so to recover from a dental.
It's good that he has a decent amount of weight on him and also that you are managing to get some food into him, both of these mean that he is probably not in any immediate danger. Also good that you have seen some improvement in his use of his jaw.
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Post by skittish on Nov 12, 2022 16:45:37 GMT
Hi moletteuk, thank you for replying. After Monty's last dental the vet sent me a photo he had taken (to show me the growth on the spur), and the contraption they use to hold open the mouth does look like it would be very painful on the jaw. The Baytril was prescribed for the lump/wound on the lump the day before the dental and vet said there is no flesh wound from the spur which is a relief, because we had experience with mouth infections with Theo and Murphy and neither ended well Monty is currently on 0.1ml of Meloxicam. I'm nervous because my partner is going away for work for a couple of days next week starting Tuesday evening, and feeding Monty the CC mixture is a 2 person job so I really want for him to be eating independently by then otherwise I won't be able to feed him until Friday (edit) morning. I've had degus I've been able to hand feed by myself, even when they are reluctant to take it, but Monty is proving very difficult!
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 13, 2022 0:54:38 GMT
I'm sorry about this, Skittish. Dentals are important treatments for a difficult condition, but recovery can be so very up and down! It's terribly hard to watch them struggle with eating, while we wait anxiously for them to turn the corner.
I am of the same mind as Moletteuk. Hopefully you will very soon see dramatic improvements in his jaw movement and usage, and a rapidly growing interest in foods. Hang on, Love. I think you are very near to that corner turn for the better.
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Post by skittish on Nov 13, 2022 19:14:46 GMT
Thank you deguconvert. I hope so much this is the case. It's so disheartening to see him refuse food he would normally be falling over himself (literally) to eat. Unfortunately still nothing today :/ We have a vet appointment booked for tomorrow evening just in case it's something more
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Post by savvy on Nov 13, 2022 19:23:12 GMT
I think it may be a case of needing to increase the painkillers a bit, but meloxicam can make them feel a bit nauseous.
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Post by yasmin on Nov 16, 2022 1:16:15 GMT
How is he doing today? Did you see the vet? Did the vet check his heart?
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Post by skittish on Nov 17, 2022 18:03:01 GMT
Hi everyone, I'm sorry for not posting sooner.
I had the appointment on Monday - we didn't see our usual vet, who is unfortunately away until end of November, but we saw another exotics vet and she theorised that the Emeprid might be causing painful cramping (my understanding is that it contracts the muscles to empty the stomach?) She mentioned that another drug (sorry I can't recall the name) could be prescribed to relax the muscles, but then he would have competing drugs in his system and it gets complicated, so instead she suggested the simplest course of action would be to skip/reduce the dose of the Emeprid initially and see if that had any results. So since Monday we have been giving Monty one dose of Emeprid instead of two. She also increased his Baytril to 0.05ml.
We have now seen Monty tentatively eat a tiny bit of leaf each day and bury the rest, and today my partner said he has seen him eating on several occasions and it's increasing in quantity. It's still very tentative though and he still loses interest and buries it much sooner than he would if he was his usual self, but he is at least now showing some small signs of wanting eat again. Yesterday I broke half a pea flake into the teeniest, tiniest chunks you could imagine, and he ate a few of those and then buried the rest. He still buries his treats if they are given to him and has no interest in the liquid food. His faeces are getting larger in size and he's producing more of them.
Thankfully my partner was able to postpone his work trip so that we can still make sure he has sufficient food and he is getting his medication.
Not so good news is that the lump on his hind leg is definitely a growth and not a bite (obviously, I'm glad that his companion didn't bite him, but it would have been something that would heal over time). The vet said the lab results were inconclusive regarding the type of growth, and I was so focused on finding the source of his appetite loss that I didn't fully take in what it means and what the next course of action is so I need to arrange to speak with the vets again to get my head around this. The wound on the lump has scabbed over and the scab has stayed in place for the most part and is gradually getting smaller each day.
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Post by skittish on Nov 17, 2022 18:28:54 GMT
He's also plateaued at ~262g, he's not losing weight but he's not gaining weight either.
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 17, 2022 20:14:23 GMT
It's good that his weight has stabilised. I would think if his gut is moving and he is producing fairly normal faeces, or at least at a steady rate, then you can probably stop the Emeprid. Gut motility drugs do work by contracting the whole gut I think, food moves through the gut generally by converting general movement in the abdomen to forward motion through the gut. Degus manage reduced eating much, much better than other hind gut fermenters, they don't tend to go into stasis like rabbits. As Savvy mentioned, he may still either need a higher dose of meloxicam (0.1mm is a good dose of dog strength, but sometimes they give cat strength which is 1/3 the strength) or the meloxicam may be upsetting his stomach. The only thing I can suggest is trying offering a wide variety of things that may tempt him and be easy for him to eat. There is a chance he may accept a homemade mashed veg mix with nuts or seed in, you could bake some oat based treats if you were inclined. (eg like this deguworld.proboards.com/post/214277/thread ) It's a shame you didn't get a conclusive answer about the leg lump, it's definitely worth a call to the vet to discuss it. Degus often manage lumps in various locations reasonably well, sometimes for a long time even when they get quite big.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 17, 2022 22:26:33 GMT
I am so glad to hear that the vet listened and gave you options that in turn have made a positive impact on Monty. It is slow in coming, but the fact that he is showing more interest in eating and is passing stool is really a great thing!! I agree with Moletteuk that he likely doesn't need to continue with the Emeprid. If you are not sure about quitting it completely, perhaps he could have it every second day? I empathize with poor Monty. I have had medications that are supposed to help with bowel issues and motility, and I did not like being on them!
I am also thankful that his weight has stabilized! That is a very good sign. I hope that before long, you will begin to see his weight return to his normal range.
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Post by skittish on Nov 19, 2022 22:14:21 GMT
Monty's appetite is returning! In the last couple of days we've regularly seen him grazing and nibbling on food throughout the day. He still buries whole treats, but is willing to eat them if I break them up into tiny chunks. His faeces have returned to normal size, colour and shape so we stopped giving the Emeprid entirely on Friday. My partner spoke with the vet on Thursday about the lump and the lab results were inconclusive but they suggested either a plasma cell tumour or a metastatic lymphnode cancer. The only way to know for sure is to take a larger sample, which would probably involve removing the lump and sending it for testing. Being in the position it is near the leg apparently there is not a lot of skin to use to close the incision and depending on the aggressiveness of the cancer there would not be a lot of margin which would potentially leave cancerous cells behind. She talked about potential necrosis of the skin around the incision which might occur with the number of stitches they would need to place and the risk of Monty opening the incision after surgery and worrying the wound. Also if it is a metastatic cancer which has spread from another part of the body, then removing the lump would not solve the problem as the primary cancer would remain. All in all she seems to be of the opinion that surgery is a last resort. I don't know whether to wait to speak to our usual vet who returns at the end of November to give a second opinion but I am worried that the longer we wait the more likely it will be that surgery will be unviable. Aside from the tumour Monty is bright and lively and with his appetite returning he is starting to regain some of his lost weight. His weight today was 267g, so I am tentatively hopeful it will pick up as he continues to eat. He's definitely becoming more like his usual foody self which is a great relief!
edit: we're still support feeding CC mixture but depending on how well he continues to eat by himself we will start to scale this back
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 20, 2022 3:20:11 GMT
I am sorry to hear those words on the tumor. That is scary. However . . . I think I agree with the vet and that surgery is the last resort. Disturbing the tumor can result in being able to clear the tumor for a time, but it often comes back, and is usually more aggressive. I'd be inclined to leave it alone.
Now I've never had a degu undergo surgery for a tumor, but a number of members here have. Hopefully you will get some input from a number of them as to their experiences and thoughts.
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Post by teemu on Nov 20, 2022 23:07:43 GMT
Yes, the way it works with cancerous tumors (i.e. tumors that are harmful in themselves) is unfortunately that due to the way those cells behave, cutting them out can easily leave behind minute amounts of cells that will restart the process - potentially in another place entirely because of those cells being spread around the body in the blood etc. Often due to this, cancers are cut out with a generous extra amount of tissue (i.e. they cut out flesh to make sure they're getting all of the tumor without touching it), but in a small animal and in a place like that, that might not be an option...
It's really unfortunate, and sounds like a difficult spot. If it's near the leg, the stitches might get torn from Monty moving around as well, and there's all the other issues as well as the risk of it recurring. I'm not a vet, of course, but it does sound like surgery would be notably risky, both for the immediate issues as well as the longer-term implications. Though I do understand wanting to consider the surgery as well. I would want a second opinion first, at the very least.
Wishing you all the best, you're doing a really good job at supporting Monty!
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Post by skittish on Nov 22, 2022 18:44:30 GMT
Thank you everyone. I really appreciate your advice. I struggle with feeling like I am not doing enough. I had rats when I was a child and they would often get lumps which my parents opted to treat with surgery and I recall they tolerated it really well (I have memories of them wrapped around the middle with a full body bandage). The vet explained though that in rats they are usually mammary tumours and as such are in a position where there is a lot of skin to close the incision and also they are more likely to be benign and therefore not reoccur. With this experience though I was finding it a bit harder to wrap my head around surgery not being a preferred option in degus. I will wait until our usual vet returns on Tuesday for a second opinion.
Please let me know if I need to restart a new thread, or if it is possible to rename this thread to include information about the tumour.
I'm sorry to keep asking for advice, but does anyone have any experience with preventing degus from worrying at a wound? In the last few days he's starting taking the scab off repeatedly and while it's scabbing over again it doesn't seem to be healing before he takes it off again (the vet did also warn that cancerous cells don't heal as well as healthy ones). We've been given a mini plastic collar by the vets, but they weren't able to put it on him without him wriggling out of it. We haven't attempted it at home yet, and wondering if there are any alternatives? Would a fabric collar be preferable? Or is there something else we haven't thought of? Thanks!
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Post by teemu on Nov 22, 2022 19:12:52 GMT
It's really, really difficult to prevent a small animal from doing what they will when it comes to wounds. I have seen someone manage to collar a pet rat, but I have not had any luck with things like that. I'm not sure there are any good options. There are some wound sprays that supposedly give off a smell that makes an animal not want to touch the wound, but my experiences with those are not good, either...
The only way I was ever able to prevent a pet rat from worrying at a wound was to essentially make a full-body wrap that made it impossible for the rat to actually bend over to pick at it, but that was an emergency measure and was really unpleasant for him, and I would not recommend it at all...
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 23, 2022 17:53:17 GMT
I wouldn't choose the surgery either. They very nearly always come back. And I think it adds quite a lot of weight that the vet didn't think it was a great option too. And also some of us have found they can live surprisingly long with tumours and with decent quality of life. Don't do it just to feel like you tried everything, sometimes doing less is better. Of course we would support you if you did want to go ahead, so don't worry about that.
I think we have only had one person/ degu on the forum that managed to fit and effectively use a collar, they had to custom fit it and line the inside edge to stop it digging in and like you say, was a fine line between tight enough they can't wriggle and out and not too tight. I don't have any further suggestions than Teemu.
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Post by deguconvert on Nov 23, 2022 18:27:26 GMT
I'm going to DITTO Moletteuk. We are here to support you, and if you feel the right route to go is with surgery, we will support you through it all!
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Post by skittish on Nov 27, 2022 14:45:01 GMT
Hi everyone, I can't thank you enough for your supportive comments and measured advice! It's really helped in keeping me calm I love these little guys to absolute pieces but booooy can they be stressful at times! There's not much to report with Monty at the moment. He's still eating but his weight is staying at 267-269g. He's still occasionally picking at the scab but I don't think it's serious enough to warrant any intervention at the moment if the only other options will be very stressful for him (Thank you teemu for the alternative suggestions at least if it gets worse then I know some other options). We have the planned vet appointment on Tuesday so we'll see what our usual vet says. I have been reflecting on the vet's comments and everyone's posts here and I think I am resigned to no surgery, as you say moletteuk, sometimes less is better. Hope everyone's having a good Sunday!
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Post by skittish on Dec 17, 2022 18:30:33 GMT
Hi everyone, just an update on Monty. Sadly, Monty needed another dental yesterday. For the last few days we noticed he has been losing weight and then on Tuesday he had a squinty right eye so we booked him in for an appointment on Thursday (poor Monty - since beginning of November, he has had 2 dentals and at least 6 vet appointments). At the appointment the vet could see the overgrown molar very clearly. It's the same one he had trimmed at the beginning of November. The vet was very surprised it had grown so much in the time span. I was all geared up expecting a repeat of last time but happily Monty is coping much better this time around. He has remained active from the moment he arrived home, he's not had any drooling, and best of all is that he is already eating.
During the procedure they also took x-rays of Monty's head, leg and chest for further info. The lump does not appear to be affecting the bone of the leg. The chest is free of obvious lumps (although vet said that lumps smaller than a certain size won't show up on an x-ray, so it's not guaranteed there is no spread). In the head, a couple of tooth roots are starting to migrate down through the jaw.
I realise I didn't post about our appointment with the vet at end of November regarding the treatment for the lump. Basically, he agreed with the assessment of the other vet that removal of the lump would be very traumatic for Monty, and without much gain, so we have decided to leave it. Fortunately the lump does not appear to have increased in any size since we discovered it, at least from what we can feel and see externally so at least there's that!
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