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Post by savvy on Jan 23, 2022 10:13:39 GMT
Yeah, all four of mine tend to get it collectively over in just over a week, which is probably a good thing, otherwise I'd have to deal with at least one on heat all the time. Nooooo! Lol.
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Post by moletteuk on Jan 23, 2022 18:14:41 GMT
I don't know whether to be reassured or annoyed that females are universally screwed over by their hormones, and that furry as well as human societies are bad at dealing with it.
I'm not sure we've ever had a sand coloured degu on the forum before, but again would agree that especially paler colours seem to shift with age.
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Post by teemu on Feb 2, 2022 14:56:00 GMT
Sadly, it seems that getting more comfortable has not made Pipari any more amenable to making friends. She has become much more used to things and seems to be pretty comfy nowadays, but certainly remembers the poor first impressions. Now she's just way more ready to defend her turf and show everyone that she means business! She rejects both Pulla and Posso very aggressively if I try to make any introductions and spends a lot of time afterwards posturing and making sure they know she's tough and means business...
Bit of a sad state of affairs, but I guess it was a lot like this with Pulla and the girls for a long time. Maybe she'll come around at some point.
I tried to show her to Limppu as well, just to gauge if there might be a home for her with the other girls, but Limppu was somehow absolutely OFFENDED to see this new, strange degu. When I lifted Limppu to look at her through the cage bars, she started screaming all outraged, same as when our dog came over to look at her once. Not sure what to make of that, but she certainly wasn't impressed...
(On a sidenote, Pipari already weighs more than Limppu. She's at a good 190 grams and growing. Limppu has not put on a gram over 180 in all her little life.)
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 2, 2022 23:20:48 GMT
I'm sorry to hear that . . . and yet not surprised. Poor Pipari had less than ideal socialization while at the pet store, and now will be approaching the beginning of adolescence. Some degus start early . . . she may be such a one. I am sure that given time, she will become more amendable to being together with other degus.
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Post by teemu on Feb 3, 2022 1:03:02 GMT
Yes, she very much seems like quick grower. She's already pretty big and seems very independent and patrols her turf, builds nests and generally acts very maturely already. It might be the way she has never really had a stable pack on which to rely. She's used to doing things herself and looking out for herself, and has obviously decided that now that she actually has a real home, she's going to do her damnest to make sure that nothing will take it from her.
I'm also seeing some signs that she's more adjusted to humans. She lets me scratch her quite often and enjoys it. Pulla was like that as well, but only as long as he was alone. As soon as he got together with Posso, he no longer needed me for basic comfort like that. It's my understanding that she had a single main handler in the pet store, and was handled daily. So it might be that similar to Pulla, she has kind of already gotten used to the idea of having humans as the main source of comfort and friendship?
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Post by deguconvert on Feb 3, 2022 7:58:43 GMT
Yes it may well be. There is also the possibility that she was separated too soon from her mother as a pup. There are lots of breeders that part the pups as soon as they are weaned, which deprives them of essential social training "in the ways of the goo." We strongly recommend that pups not be parted from their mother until the age of 6 weeks, because those two extra weeks do so much in the way of teaching them degu etiquette, colony hierarchy, and how to get along with other degus. IT'S SO important. Pups that are parted from adult degus too soon, have great difficulty relating to other degus as a result and it is terribly hard on them.
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Post by teemu on Mar 8, 2022 18:30:26 GMT
Well, after a month of silence, I tried new introductions today. I actually ordered a puppy playpen that I could use to fend off a section of our living room as an easy, neutral area. That part worked really well, and so I put Pipari and Pulla in to mingle. Things took a bad turn pretty soon. Pulla was totally unagressive and mostly unintrested in Pipari. They even groomed a bit. But then Pipari actually attacked him. That wasn't just territorial squabbling or arguing or slapping, she actually went for him seriously. No vocalization of any kind, she just chased after Pulla and tried to get a FBOD going. Even after I quickly pushed them apart and separated them, she kept trying to go at him. (No one was injured, I realised the situation for what it was and managed to push Pipari back before she got a good hold on Pulla, but she was absolutely trying to grab on and start biting) This seems like a rather delicate situation. Pipari is now as big as Pulla and Posso, practically speaking, and she was actually serious about hurting another degu as soon as she realised that there was someone else in the same space at her. There wasn't even any warning beforehand. Much more serious than any other aggression situation I've seen. It's obviously not the right time to start trying to introduce them together yet.
(Of note is that Pipari obviously wasn't afraid or tense in the new area. I let everyone take a look at it alone earlier in the day so they would not be spooked by it, and she was excited and curious about it back then. She wasn't behaving scared at any point. She just went to attack as soon as there was another degu nearby...)
I did not even try to put Posso in there, since she is way more ready to start scrapping than Pulla. And if Pulla, who just groomed Pipari a bit and went away, triggered something like this, Posso would likely actually get FBOD going.
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Post by moletteuk on Mar 8, 2022 19:16:13 GMT
Hmm you've got plenty to think about there, it's not really looking promising for Pipari with Pulla and Posso. Is Pulla OK, I presume he's fine physically, but he's a sensitive soul?
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Post by teemu on Mar 8, 2022 19:31:54 GMT
Hmm you've got plenty to think about there, it's not really looking promising for Pipari with Pulla and Posso. Is Pulla OK, I presume he's fine physically, but he's a sensitive soul?
Yeah, he's fortunately fine, both physically and mentally. He took it pretty well and I took Pipari away and let him hang out with Posso for a bit. They enjoyed the new space tremendously and I gave them some seeds. Pulla doesn't even seem to remember the whole thing any more.
I am actually surprised how very calm and nonplussed Pulla has become now that he's a married man. He's all live-and-let-live nowadays!
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Post by deguconvert on Mar 8, 2022 20:17:45 GMT
I can't help but wonder what Pipari's history is. Was she removed way too early from her mother, and is therefore lacking in degu social skills? What she put in with other degus that bullied her, and she has a grudge against other degus?
I think she may need long term, very slow going, work to realize that other degus are not a danger to her. I certainly wouldn't rush into anymore introductions for quite some time. As in 3+ months. In a way . . . she is very like Pulla was a year ago when you first joined, but much worse.
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Post by teemu on Mar 8, 2022 21:58:32 GMT
Yeah, she obviously needs a whole lot of slow and patient work. While I'm not sure about her complete history, I think she came to the store at the minimum age, or pretty close to that. She is one of those Swedish pups that get shipped to the store. So a long trip away from home at a rather young age. And I do know that she spent most of her life in the pet store, with at least two different cagemates that were swapped out as they got bought, until I got her. So she was there for something like two months.
She's very sociable with people and curious and active, but also pretty skittish still. She's obviously scared about other degus and perceives them as threats. But I'll take it slow and see what comes of it in the future. For now, she obviously does not want other degus around and is ready to fight about it.
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Post by teemu on Mar 17, 2022 10:55:23 GMT
Last night marked a very important moment in socialising Pipari. She groomed my hand after I gave her some scratches. She was a bit groggy and sleepy since she woke up when I reheated her heat pad (I heat them twice in the evening, once earlier and once right before I go to sleep), but I'm still very happy about it Pipari is starting to seem like a really lovely little lady. She's easily the most human-facing degu I've seen (probably due to her background) and she is really intrested in what people are doing. If somebody walks past the cage, she runs after them to check what's going on, and she always comes up to me when I wake up, as if she's expecting it. She's pretty skittish, so sometimes she's obviously a bit conflicted about actually interacting, but she really wants to know what people are doing.
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Post by teemu on Apr 4, 2022 7:38:31 GMT
Pipari is looking like a right piece of work. She is very bonded to me now, but that seems to signify, to her, that she should shun everything else. She won't even look at any of the other degus, and now she has started vocally protesting if my wife tries to open the cage. She actually hides under the hay and screams until the human is switched with the familiar human. My wife was away a lot last month, so it might be that she's just shy, but she is obviously becoming very, very imprinted on her current cage and owner and doesn't want anything to change.
Fortunately, there's no real issue with keeping things like this for now. I hope that she will be socializable at some point in the future, but for now and until she is older, I think I won't push her. She's had a hard life, she should at least have some stability and security. If nothing else, at least she is very lovely around me and begs for attention every time I am close by.
(It also looks like her being here has kind of solidified the social situation in the two other cages. Limppu and Suti now shun even Posso when they see her, who they were mostly curious about before, and Posso is also very vigilant and standoffish if another degu is spotted in the vicinity. Pulla doesn't really care, but everyone else has absolutely decided that things are good as they are and everyone else needs to stay far away.)
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 4, 2022 20:32:45 GMT
ROFL!! Well . . . that was not expected . . . but I'm glad everyone is very happy with where they are at and who they are with!
I hope Pipari will build a bond with your wife as well. She sounds truly lovely, and I think if I were the one with Pipari . . . I'd probably end up carrying her about with me. LOL! I contemplated sewing an apron of sorts that would have little tunnels and pockets in it so that our original boys could ride about with me for hours at a time. I wanted it to be waterproof on the inside so that when they peed, I wouldn't be drenched as well. However . . .circumstances changed before I could do that. It's still a dream I would have loved to see come to pass.
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Post by deguconvert on Apr 5, 2022 5:34:50 GMT
BTW! I am certain your wife is a truly lovely woman, and given enough time and opportunities, she will win Pipari over!!
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Post by teemu on Apr 5, 2022 9:23:31 GMT
Yeah, I've no doubt that she will get over it. I think it's just the fact that my wife was away for over half of the last month, so Pipari probably didn't know what to think. Given some time and steady, patient work, she'll surely come around to her.
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Post by teemu on May 13, 2022 17:56:34 GMT
Pipari's behavior towards the other degus is rather discouraging. She is very jealous of any others getting attention and loudly protests if she sees anyone approaching Pulla and Posso. In addition, she has now begun to sulk if I take off the sheet between her cage and Posso and Pulla's cage (they weren't even nearly at touching range, there just hasn't been a sight line between them directly). I tried it, and for the first day she screamed and threw tantrums over the fact that they even existed, and today she refused to come out of her nest unless I bribed her with seeds. Now that I've put the sheet back again, she immediately sprang out, all full of energy and began to do all the normal things.
She seriously does not want other degus around her. She doesn't even want other degus to get any attention. I'm not sure if I should try to break this behavior somehow. Maybe she'd be happier with others, but she's opposed so badly that it's an actual crisis if she has to even acknowledge any others around. So I'm not really sure if there's anything to do other than to wait and see if her mood will change at some point.
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Post by moletteuk on May 13, 2022 20:58:34 GMT
Is she just the same if she sees Limppu and Suti...or maybe worse? It sounds disheartening to get such an overly dramatic response.
I guess you could try her across the room with no barrier, but that might not be practicable in your house, especially then gradually moving her closer.
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Post by teemu on May 13, 2022 23:25:43 GMT
I can't unfortunately really check how well she reacts to Limppu and Suti because Limppu absolutely freaks out as soon as she sees Pipari. I'm really not sure what it is, but when I bring either near the other's cage, Limppu just starts shrieking like mad and refuses to have any of it. If I bring Pipari close to her and Suti's cage, she actually starts freaking out and hurling herself bodily at Suti to get her away from there, as if this new degu was the most dangerous thing ever. It's really strange since they've never even been at touching distance of each other! And knowing how ballistic Suti was before I took Posso out of there... it doesn't seem like a good idea to shake that situation up at all.
I think part of what's making Pipari shun all the other degus so hard is that she's imprinted really hard on me. She's always watching what I'm doing, always running up to the door as soon as I move, just being totally focused on me. I think she might actually have learned to trust humans more than other degus, since at least the humans in her life have not just switched out constantly (she had a regular handler/caretaker in the pet store as well). She isn't as fond of my wife, but she still seems to recognise her as a much more desirable source of attention than any other degu and is just as jealous at her if she goes to the other cages first in the morning.
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Post by deguconvert on May 14, 2022 4:13:09 GMT
Interesting! And odd! Quite different from the usual. I'm not sure what to think, Teemu.
If I were to form any opinion, I think seeing what happens as she matures and becomes more at ease in your home and with her environment is really the only thing you can do right now. I wouldn't try to change her bond with you at all . . . that would come across like a very hard rejection to her, and that could have consequences you don't want.
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