|
Post by morton235 on Apr 21, 2019 14:28:47 GMT
Hey guys, sorry for not updating for a while. Moletteuk - it's absolutely fine for you to voice your opinion, you haven't overstepped at all and I really appreciate your honesty Andrew and I have had a few talks about the fine line of going too far and dragging things out, it's been a constant worry with Riley, she's been through a heck of a lot and it's always a question of 'how far is too far' and 'just because you can doesn't always mean you should'. She won't be going through the operation, but thank you for sharing your thoughts on it xx It's not a good update I have for you all, sadly Riley only has a few weeks left with us We took her in 3-4 weeks ago for her xray. The plan was to take her in for an xray, see what her teeth are like and operate if possible and PTS if not. In the end Andrew decided not to xray at all and to send her home with us because she was doing so well. She's maintaining a good weight and is only on evening recovery feeds as she feeds herself during the day. Since adding the UV light and vit drops her tooth growth has slowed hugely. Her teeth are almost the normal colour now, there's no rot and she can go a good four weeks without needing a trim. The spur that he was worried about causing a problem has actually vanished, which is amazing. So we left it until she needed her teeth trimming so that she wouldn't be sedated twice, since she'd need to be put under for the trim so we may as well do the xray and trim at once and limit the amount of times she goes under. In terms of surface dental issues and weight she's been doing great since then - even her coat looks healthier. We took her back last week when her bottom incisors needed doing, and she had her trim as well as an xray. The xray results were brutal Her roots are insane, there's so much bone mass growing, even the vet said he didn't know how she was coping so well. And if that wasn't enough, her flamin' ranula is back So we decided that since she's doing so well, we're going to enjoy her whilst she is here. The second she deteriorates, she is going to be PTS. I'm not sure how quickly the ranula will grow, but I'm guessing we only have a few weeks left. There have been so many times now where we've driven her to the vets and thought she wasn't coming home with us, it almost feels like she will just keep pulling things out of the bag, except this time she can't. It's awful because she is just so full of life. I've never known anything like her, she is absolutely incredible But I'm so, so thankful that we have had all of this extra time with her. We would have lost her months ago with a less knowledgable vet. I've known for a few weeks that the end is most likely coming so it's given me time to adjust to it, so hearing that this is it hasn't been quite as big of a hit as it would have been before. I'm sitting with her and Goo in the play pen as much as I can - they are absolute terrors haha Goo insists on either eating my shoes if I wear any or nibbling my toes if I don't, and Riley has an unsatiable obsession with the laptop if I'm watching anything. They are complete nightmares and I absolutely love them. We're making the most of our last weeks with her and getting ready to spend a whole lot more time with Mr Goo. I've even got him a snuggle teddy and put it in already to get Rileys scent on it. My biggest worry is that he won't cope very well without her, he absolutely dotes on her bless him
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 21, 2019 18:42:47 GMT
Try number two . . . my internet failed and blew away my reply. EYE ROLL! I'm so grieved by what the X-Ray has shown . . . and yet I still find that I can't help but be hopeful for even better returns from the use of the UV lamp and Vit. D. I may be remembering wrong, but I feel certain I read reports from a member (maybe from Bouncy?) that indicated that X-Rays had shown that roots that had overgrown and were intruding sinuses or brain, had receded and were assuming normal proportions. I did remember wrong, the root growth stopped and did not progress any further. ( deguworld.proboards.com/thread/21679/degu-dental-issues-results-experiment ) Page two I think? You have probably seen that thread, but it is such an encouraging read from the excellent results . . . I still hold hope. If her teeth continue to improve, and the ranula were the only problem . . . is it still too much for her? I'm just wondering, with the surgeries already performed on the ranula, maybe there is a problem with having enough tissue to work with at some point. Or maybe there is an underlying problem that the ranula is a symptom of? I'm probably not asking anything you haven't already asked. I hope my asking hasn't caused you greater pain. You and your husband have been so incredibly awesome in your efforts of time and money and love, with both Mr. Goo and Riley! You are wonderful, wonderful people, and you teach me about giving without measure. I really deeply appreciate you both!!
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Apr 21, 2019 18:55:11 GMT
I'm so sorry her time is coming to an end, her love of life and your love for her are so bright and strong. It sounds like you've gone through it all with the vet and ridden the logic and emotion rollercoaster and come out the other side having made your peace with it, which is really the best place you can be in the circumstances. Wishing you some crazy sweet fun in that pen with the love bird tykes! The UV light and vitamin D response is amazing and brilliant that it backs up Bouncy's result, I just wish I understood what is going on!
|
|
|
Post by morton235 on Apr 23, 2019 11:41:33 GMT
Thank you so much for your kind words, DC. They mean an awful lot and it is so, so kind of you to say them It's a difficult one with the ranula. I'll try to get a copy of her xray to show you guys, but her roots are a state. It really hurts to think that if I had put a UV light up and added the drops when I first got her, the results would probably be completely different. Given the amazing results, I honestly don't doubt it would have saved her. But I guess thinking like that won't help and at least I know going forward for any future goos, and can advise others to do the same. At the very least, Rileys results may help save another goo somewhere, and it is a very interesting and wonderful thing that they strongly back up Bouncys results. With the ranula, there is also a sore in Rileys mouth that could be linked. She squeaks in pain when she feeds, which over the past few days has gotten worse. It's not all the time and she isn't avoiding food at all (aside from one day where she wouldn't approach the syringe for about five minutes, but did eventually feed) - in fact her weight has been better since this bad news than it has been in a long time, she does fluctuate but on her good days she is reaching the 160's, which she hasn't done since before I began recording her weight! The squeaking ranges from a 'ohh that's a bit uncomfortable' to a high pitched 'AGH!' which is awful to hear and makes me want to cry when she does it, but she goes straight back to feeding afterwards. Sometimes she will hop off my lap for a sec, compose herself and then come back if it was a big one. Apart from the squeaking and grabbing of her teeth she is doing really well. The fur on her chin is growing back nicely so she isn't drooling, and the mouth pain doesn't affect her eating nuggets. Sometimes she will squeak a little eating her nuggs, but they are tiny squeaks and very few. I never force her with the syringe feeding, so I wonder if it is to do with the liquid consistency of the CC and she can't control which part of her mouth it goes to as easily. I'm trying to make it as thick as I'm able to but the syringes are a big problem with that. My husband and I have talked about the squeaking a lot, he knows how much it upsets me but has likened it to when we have ulcers and things - it hurts, but we get used to it as we eat. She does seem to squeak less as the feed goes on, it's more at the beginning. The sore doesn't seem to be going away though. Andrew wasn't concerned about it at all, and I'm not 100% sure that that's what is causing the pain given the state of her roots, but is what I think makes the most sense. Her metacam has been split into twice daily to give her better coverage so we will see how that goes. Thank you molletteuk. It's difficult because the second I think I've adjusted and accepted everything I find I still have some sort of hope that she will turn it all around again, Riley-style. But we are slowly accepting everything. All of the previous visits where I thought she wasn't coming home have helped, because her not coming home isn't a new feeling anymore. It's given us the time we need to accept it as best we can, and to have those hard conversations and to make plans. We have been able to discuss what we want to do with her body and where we would like to scatter her ashes, which although are awful things to talk about whilst she's still here have helped us to accept the inevitable, and will mean we won't be stuck having to think about those things in the moment when the time comes.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 23, 2019 14:07:03 GMT
Have you tried offering a thicker cc on a spoon, or does she prefer it in the syringe?
|
|
|
Post by morton235 on Apr 23, 2019 18:15:33 GMT
She ignores the spoon. She's very particular, to the point where if I sit in a different position to feed her she is hit and miss whether she takes from the syringe, but if I offer her my knee to sit on (her usual spot) she eats right away and consistently. I don't know how much of this is down to me just instantly giving up new things if she's not eating and going straight back to what she's used to. She certainly has me well trained, haha.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Apr 23, 2019 19:45:08 GMT
I wonder if she would take a thick version on sliced almonds? Or rice crispies dipped in it . . . like a cc "cone" of sorts.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Apr 24, 2019 10:27:43 GMT
I understand about the saying good bye, I spent 14 months with Alice thinking she had 2 to 4 weeks to live that whole time and sometimes a lot less, I said goodbye to her about half a dozen times. It helped me at the end knowing how hard I fought for her, and all the times being prepared for it, although it was still a shock at the end. You've given her a whole year of worthwhile and happy extra life and love!
I can only say try not to dwell on the vitamin D, it's so new and comes with risks so we can't heavily promote it when we don't know for certain the response. I think as a forum, now that we have another significant positive response, we can think again about raising awareness and promoting it more for other dental goos, so Riley will potentially be helping lots of other degus, that's a wonderful thing.
I think the squeaking when she takes the syringe isn't necessarily just about pain, if it was agony I don't think she would accept the syringe at all. I'm sure you've tried all the options and she hasn't chosen any other method that would give her more control. Maybe there is some excitement involved, or it is a bit painful but worth it and she is vocally giving herself a pep talk, I tend to think her vocalising so much means it isn't just a pure pain response at least. I also think your husband makes a good point that with something like a mouth ulcer that first touch is agony but continued touch brings it right down to just uncomfortable very quickly.
|
|
|
Post by morton235 on May 7, 2019 12:05:45 GMT
Sorry Moletteuk, I could have sworn I'd replied to your comment previously. Thank you for sharing your story on Alice, it really did help.
I'm so sorry to say that we had to take Riley to be PTS on the 26th April. I know that was almost two weeks ago, but I couldn't really face coming onto the forum. I've typed the web address in half a dozen times and always found some excuse not to. She was squeaking when eating and even started squeaking when she wasn't, and constantly drooling and pawing at her mouth, and it was all just too much. I know that she most likely could have hung on for another week or two - she'd have lived, but I couldn't bare the thought of her suffering. I didn't want her to have to get to the point where she /was/ in agony, or couldn't eat at all for herself, for me to actually do anything about it. She shouldn't have to get to that. So instead we chose to let her go when she was still Riley. She was still her lively, wonderful self and it made everything so much more heartbreaking. But at least she didn't reach the point where she was in too much pain, and we know she hadn't reached the point where she was suffering too terribly in the end.
We had actually taken her in on the Thursday, but saw a vet who we had not seen before and knew "inappropriate word" all about Rileys situation. She took one look at Riley and without even taking her out of the cage said she looked ok, and that if we wanted to have her PTS she 'wouldn't recommend it because she's active' but she would do it 'if we were really sure because her prospects don't look good'. She then suggested an antibiotic for Rileys mouth and to come back and see Andrew when he was back on the Monday. We left with the antibiotic and Riley, because why wouldn't we give absolutely everything a try, but were furious and disheartened and so conflicted. Making that call to book Riley in was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do. Making the decision to take her in and actually doing it were not choices we made lightly, we'd agonised over Rileys health and her contradicting energeticness for god knows how long before making that call, and then to have a vet not even look at her and say she's ok, and to come back and see a different vet because he knows better was infuriating. If we'd have thought that Riley could have waited till the Monday we wouldn't have gone in!
We spent the rest of Thursday listening to her cry out, watching her drool and not even go five paces without grabbing her mouth, all whilst throwing herself around the place with her typical Riley energy. I sat listening to her thinking over and over how wrong it was that she was still in pain. I'll admit, there was also a part of me that just wanted it to be over, and it feels so selfish to know and say that but so many times we'd been down that same exhausting road.
Her weight dropped again on the Friday and so we took her back. I know that we hadn't hardly given the antibiotic a chance but it felt like we'd made a huge mistake bringing her home. We saw a different vet, one who had met Riley before and knew her case. She said that Andrew had shown her the xrays and that it wasn't an issue antibiotics would fix, it's pain from her roots. We didn't need to explain anything to her, she seemed almost relieved that we'd brought her in and said that although she's still so energetic she though it best she be let go now, whilst she's still like she is, rather than later when things have gotten worse. When she sedated Riley she used the same anaesthetic that they had used so many times before when doing her teeth, and she pointed out that even just being put under her breathing was really laboured which wasn't like her. If I remember rightly she didn't come round from her last op nearly as easily as before, either. We were so thankful for that vet, she was kind and caring towards Riley and handled her well. She gave us plenty of time to be with her so we could say our goodbyes. Sadly we don't have a garden suitable for burrial where we live, so we are getting her cremated instead. I've picked out a tree where she will be scattered in the park I walk our dog around every morning. It's a blossom tree, which I think makes a wonderful representation of Rileys life. I'll make a Rainbow Bridge post about her soon, but I'm not sure when I'll feel ready to tackle it. Thank you everyone for all of your support through Rileys journey. It has meant so, so much to all of us xxxx
|
|
|
Post by ntg on May 7, 2019 12:18:36 GMT
I'm so sorry morton Riley was so so lucky to have found her way to you and Mr Goo! She was such a little character and will be sorely missed.
|
|
|
Post by misscatafer on May 7, 2019 13:42:18 GMT
So sorry for your loss Moreton, Riley had a lovely time with you, you always did the best for her, she is at peace now. Hope Mr Goo is doing OK and take care of yourselves during this sad time.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on May 7, 2019 14:11:35 GMT
Oh Morton! You and your husband are wonderful loving people, and I am just shattered for your loss!! I am so sorry. SO sorry, and I totally understand. Wish I could give you each hugs.
How is Mr. Goo doing?
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on May 7, 2019 15:15:40 GMT
I'm very sorry for your loss. I hope you are starting to see the possibility of the glimmer of new light through your grief. Nobody could have loved Riley more or done a better job of caring for her. I hope you are allowing yourself to feel a little relief at the end of the emotional strain, I know when I let Alice go (about 5 weeks ago now) I was desperate to get her to the end without messing up, without her suffering unduly, I can hear so much that resonates with me with your wishes for Riley at the end. I'm so sorry the vet sabotaged you, I can't imagine the trauma you must have felt preparing yourselves, saying goodbye and taking her in only to be turned away. You really did the right thing going back the next day. It sounds like she slipped away peacefully in the end and is now lighting up goo heaven with her brightness, and you and your husband will always carry a little bit of the brightness with you, we all felt it on the forum.
Shine brightly, Riley xx
|
|
|
Post by yasmin on May 8, 2019 2:50:05 GMT
Sincere and heartfelt condolences morton235.
|
|
|
Post by morton235 on May 21, 2019 11:33:45 GMT
Aw jeez, there's me thinking I can manage it and you're all already making me blubber, haha. Thank you, everyone Thank you so, so much for your kindness and support through everything. We are doing ok, it's just getting used to there not being as much noise here. Riley was always charging around the cage with loads more energy than Goo, so it's pretty quiet now. Goo is doing as well as can be expected, but he shouts a little more than he used to. His grooming of us has gotten harsher as well, almost frantic in some cases. I've started doing a little 'squeak' when he gets too rough. He used to be like this before Riley, but she taught him to be quite gentle. I keep telling him we don't have a fur coat to act as a buffer between us and his teeth! I've made a few changes to how I do things so that he gets more time with us. He is now my movie/series snuggle buddy, and gets access to the playpen pretty much every day. I've been swapping his toys around with new ones to keep things interesting, and have 'play pen only' toys so that the pen is extra special when he goes in it. Even my husband has been handling him, which he's always been too scared to do before (scared of hurting Goo/Goo escaping). It's rather cute, really. Goo steps onto his hands and my husband looks all amazed, turning to me super slowly with Goo in his arms like 'omg look!' haha. I've come to fully accept the choice we made and know it was the right thing to do, which is a huge strain off. The first few weeks were still in that shocked state of 'was it right', 'was she suffering' etc and my mind would just go through the options and 'what ifs' over and over again. Deciding to let her go was the only way we could be 100% sure she wasn't suffering, and although it was an awful decision it was what was best for her. The last few weeks were exactly like you described Moletteuk, and I'm so sorry you had to go through the same thing with Alice. It's not something I'd wish on anyone. Wanting to do what is right and being at war with yourself over what that is is agonizing. It feels selfish to say, but yes, relief has also come with end. Caring for Riley at the end, having those constant battles with myself, and trying to decipher the conflicting information that Riley was giving out with both her cries and her endless energy was overwhelmingly exhausting. It's a relief to not be going through that anymore. Despite that, I'd do it all again if I could, she was worth it all. That little spider-monkey will be fiercely missed xx
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on May 21, 2019 18:28:03 GMT
Awww, I love that your husband is falling under Goo's spell Do you think you might consider another girlfriend for Goo when you are ready (to save your fingers!)?
|
|
|
Post by morton235 on May 24, 2019 14:15:11 GMT
It's doubtful at the minute, it'd have to be the right lady and I don't know if we would find one suitable. I think the reason Bounce didn't accept him was because she could sense he had health issues, which are deteriorating, and with Riley her conditions were way worse than his anyway so she was happy with him mounting her and being boss etc. I'd worry a new lady wouldn't accept him being alpha, and that even through the intros he'd get injured if he got knocked around too much - he's not nearly as agile as other degus. And then to have two single goos to find time for would be really hard. So for now we're just focusing on Goo and making sure he gets as much time spent with him as possible. In an ideal world I'd like to hope we can find him a suitable lady friend in the future, but it's not something we're actively planning on atm
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on May 24, 2019 18:46:02 GMT
Oh, I didn't know or had forgotton that Goo wasn't in full health, I'm sorry to hear or be reminded of that.
|
|
|
Post by bouncy on Jan 8, 2020 12:15:15 GMT
I was thinking about Riley when I wasn't on the boards, because I knew you were close to a decision when I took a step back.
You gave her a wonderful life. Looking at when she first arrived on your doorstep in the hamster cage, nursing her back to the bouncing ball she became (possibly much to the annoyance of her sister/mum Boo), and to see her personality develop before us, was amazing! Not many could have done that.
|
|