In over my head and need advice

[jennk]

So, I went to petco yesterday to get my new baby guinea pig treated for a respiratory infection. There was an older couple in there debating over bottles that asked me my opinion on what water bottle to get for degus. Well, the couple went on to explain that he had cancer and she just had a major surgery and her five girls turned out to be four girls and a boy. The conversation ended in her dropping off all the degus at my house! So this is what I know of them. The adults are all less than a year. They were kept in a 20 gallon tank and fed guinea pig pellets. Several weeks back she found one dead baby. A few weeks later, nine pups were born, about a week after that, she found two more dead pups. At this point the male was taken out and put into a 10 gallon on his own. The pups are now 6 wks old. Upon their arrival, I immediately put the male in a 20 gallon, and separated the males from the females. They are all sooooo cute! She wanted to take two female babies home for her neice so I sexed out two of the healthiest babies and gave them to her as I felt I would be better able to care for the others. Their are Alot of tails missing. There is currently 4 adult females. Three baby females. One adult male and four baby males. Now. I believe their is still one female in which is pregnant as she has a bit more of a pouch then the other females. And their were three litters and four females! I also have a sneaking suspicion that atleast two of the other three are pregnant since the male was not separated until after the the third litter was born. That third female may also be pregnant as i am not positive how long it was before they were separated. I have immediately changed their diets! They are now on a chinchilla/guinea pig mix with fresh hay available at all times and a fresh salad provided once a day. I also went out and got the appropriate hides and exercise wheels they have been lacking. I understand that their enclosures are all wrong however until I get paid and can build them an appropriate one, this is what I have! So please, no cage bashing. I got it, they need more room and ventilation, however it was an emergency and I can only provide what I can at the moment. I am more concerned with pregnancies and nutrition at this point... And hygiene as she has never provided a dust bath. I have some basic knowledge of degus but not much. So... Help! Another concern I have is I read somewhere that if I separate the male from the females it would be cruel to both the male and females as they already have a deep bond. However... That's alot of babies. I am already about $200 in and will be spending a decent about more on two new enclosures... I cannot afford a neuter at this moment... Oy!

[bouncy]

Wow! You are certainly in at the deep end!

If you have a male in with the females, remove him immediately, although the chances are that at least one of the others is pregnant. It's right that the male will be lonely, but it's a better option than lots of babies. You can put his cage against the other so they can interact, though.

If one of them does end up having babies, you have the option of putting one of the male pups with dad.

There's lots of guidance on here about diet, nutrition, housing, and health - look for the sticky threads at the top of each section.

Sorry, can't provide much more whilst I'm at work......

[savvy]

Personally I think at this point is a necessity to keep the males away from the females.

I'd put the tanks close by so that they can still see each other, but I'm fairly new to degus too, so could be wrong.

Where about do you live? I have a spare cage you can borrow if you are near enough to collect, unfortunately I don't drive. Others may be able to help with that too.

You may have taken on a lot, and at the moment you will be stressed, so take a deep breath. I think you've done wonderfully just taking them on and seem to be thinking as clearly as you can.

All you can do is your best and I think you're doing that.

[uglibug]

You have definitely done the right thing separating the males from the females. I assume you have all the females together and the boys in with dad. It may take the adult male a little while to adjust to the new living arrangements but they will all be fine. Keep an eye on the girls in case of repeat pregnancy, gestation is around 3 months so they would be about half way through by now. Offering fresh or dried greens, herbs and an oil seed mix will help them rebuild their stores before any new pups are born (see diet and nutrition boards).

[moletteuk]

I think you may be in pretty deep, but you sound like you have your head screwed on and some small animal experience behind you, so I'm sure you can figure it all out. You've got the priority sorted already which is separating the males from the females. The dad may pine for his ladies for a while but with four sons to keep him company he will move on and be fine, he's going to be busy raising and socialising 4 sons.

All 4 adult females may be pregnant, so that could be a major issue for you space-wise. I don't know if you have any rehoming organisations or animal charities in your area that may be able to help, it might be worth putting some feelers out there in advance.

We have a beginners guide which covers all the immediate essentials deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19754/beginners-guide-degu-keeping
We also have a feeding guide deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide The choice of pellets and opportunities to buy varied forage are quite limited in the states, so you may need to look around a bit to figure out the healthiest diet you can offer them. We have an American specific thread here deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16569/links-herb-supplies-american-threads

For housing, we understand it may take a little while to get things up to scratch, do you think you might be interested in building wooden cages for them? Again, the choice of bought cages in the states seems to be slim and they are expensive, you are looking at the double critter nation to house 3 degus normally. As an immediate priority watch out for anything plastic as they will chew anything like that, they can escape from plastic bottomed cages in less than an hour. Metal, glass, wood, ceramic is the way to go for accessories and things like sand baths, but you can improvise with all kinds of things. Just ask if you want help figuring out how to make the best of things and how to sort things out longer term.

Do they seem in good shape? The most common problem for degus is dental issues.

Are they all getting along?

[jennk]

I live in southern WI. They do all get along wonderfully! And I have homes set up for all the little ones. They're fully weaned so I am not concerned about that, however, I am still going to hold them for a week or two to ensure they are healthy before sending them off. O have built custom cages previously, so no concern their, I just need the funds available to do so. The enclosure will be built from a wood frame with 1/2" wire mesh surrounding it and two doors on the front. They are separated, male and females. Daddy seems to be happy that he has his babies! Their is one female that is definitely pregnant as I can feel babies in her stomach. I believe at least one more may be early pregnancy and their are two that it is very possible that they are pregnant as well. Although, mama seems very skinny, it is likely she is pregnant as well. I do not know how to judge pregnancies... Just probabilities... I do have some background knowledge with rodents but I know that a degu is basically a catch all! They've got a little bit of everything, so I am very unsure of what exactly to do. How much do I feed of what? How do I judge health? What materials are best? Do I supplement with pregnancies, how can I be sure their pregnant be for they're obvious, what special care do the babies need? Should I get them a wheel or a disc? Soooooo many questions! What six enclosure should I build for the mamas? Should I rehome all the boys together or simply in pairs and trios? When should I rehome? Hoe long should I quarantine? What signs of illnesses should I watch for, should I use low dust pine shaving, fabric, or paper? How many should I keep? What is a good number for a herd? Should I keep any babies, should I keep the male with the females long term since they're bonded? Or rehome him with the babies? How much does it cost to neuter a degu? Is that even a realistic option? What's a good rehoming fee if I cannot find good friends and family to take them? Should I take a newborn litter away from the
females? Or would they all be fine? Omg!

[jennk]

The babies do seem to be in good shape. The mama is very thin. I am assuming its the lack of nutrition and the stress of the babies, plus a possible second pregnancy and sever over crowding. Three of the four females are missing part of their tail, which is how I tell them apart, one of the female babies is as well, along with one of the baby boys. I am assuming this is either from over crowding or lack of enrichment as they've had no outside time. Also, bonding. How do I bond with them. The pups are fairly easy to pick up and handle, but the adults are all scared of their own shadow!

[bouncy]

Bonding is a slow process, greatly assisted with treats which is great, as oats make a yummy treat AND will help mummy goo recover. Start introducing your hand, letting them come to you, then progress to encouraging them to come to you, sit on your hand, etc. Reward each time. They don't particularly like being picked up, especially around the middle. Either gently scoop them up with two hands from the side, or train them to go into a tube, then pick the tube up. When I let mine out, I sit on the floor whilst they run around. They're used to me being there, and I'm now considered a human jungle gym!

Personally, I find my goos regulate their own eating. I ensure there's always a mix of seeds and low sugar muesli in the bowls, and a constant heap of dried forage and hay. They eat when they're hungry! You might find growing pups will eat even more than the adults.

[Bexi87]

I can't really add anything more to what else has been suggested but I just wanted to say well done for stepping up and giving these guys a helping hand

[jennk]

I couldn't just leave them in that situation. And the lady truly had no idea what she was doing. Which really upset me because she had internet. Have a question- google! That's what I do! With all my animals and rescues that's the first thing I do! Whether I've had them before or not, google! Information changes and it doesn't hurt to have a refresher! Degus, I have never had before, but they are rodents. And I I know anything about rodents its their ability to quickly and efficiently procreate. My husband is upset because this now brings my numbers to an even 20 before the fish and dogs! But, it is what it is and i'm glad I took them. I think right now I am just on over load. And need todo alot of research before anything else.

[Karma]

I started with mine in a tank as well, I could not get them tame until I moved to their critter nation and had the sliding doors. No matter what I did, hands from above are scary! Almost Immediately after moving cats (once they acknowledged my existence because they had so much to explore lol), taming was very quick .... Errrrrr .... They still hate being picked up but the one will tolerant it, they LOVE running around in my hoodie and will eventually curl up and snooze. Keep giving them treats and once you switch to a different cage you may have the same thing happen.

We won't cage bash you don't worry. In a rescue situation like that, you do the best with what you have and you have already improved their lives dramatically. Honestly it probably is better because then they don't have to deal with a million changes at the same time during pregnancy.

I hope you have good luck rehoming the babies and they will be off o a great start with what you are doing . And thank you for rescuing the babes and dealing with all this. Enjoy reading throughy the forum and let us know which parts you are still unsure about.

[moletteuk]

A lot of the basics are covered in the beginners guide, so do spend some time going over it, I'm sure it will help you find your feet.

Degus are designed to eat a forage based diet, this can be hay, grasses, tree leaves, flowers, meadow and hedgerow plants, herbs, there are safe lists and threads about this on the forum. It's popular to also feed a pellet, and it's also a good idea to feed an oil seed mix which is high in calcium. They can't have any sugar and grains/ carbs should be kept to a minimum due to their tendency to diabetes and general difficulty with glucose spikes in the body.

Nursing and pregnant females just need more of the same diet and perhaps extra oil seeds and some nuts (walnuts, hazelnuts, brazil, preferable not peanuts)

It's very difficult to confirm pregnancy until quite late on, usually the last two or three weeks and complete surprise births are common. The best signs are weight gain, size and shape of abdomen, and you may be able to see nipples later on. As long as the mum is feeding them and is herself well fed, babies don't need any special care from the human other than baby proofing the cage and making sure they can't escape. Babies can't regulate their temperature until they are a week old, so if they wander out of the nest, they need putting back before too long, but mum usually does this. Babies can leave at 6 to 8 weeks, boys need to be separated out no later than 8 weeks to avoid pregnancy. They all benefit from staying with a parent a couple of extra weeks to learn social behaviour.

Health checks are really just monitoring weight, you can use a kitchen scale, it's handy to keep records becuase you are looking for patterns rather than going for an ideal weight. Keep an eye out that they all eat a bit of everything and they all move well and are active, teeth are orange, coat looks shiny and healthy.

What works as a group size can vary, but 2 to 6 is the normal range with 3 being a good starter size. Pairs are OK but there may be less social behaviour and the group is vulnerable if one dies, you then need to tackle introductions. Degus are very clever and have extemely sophisticated social systems, they can be picky about who they want to live with, there is always the risk of a group breaking down and fighting, which can honestly be difficult to deal with. Basically the 3 baby girls should go as a group of 3. Ideally you might want to wait and see how the social dynamic of the boys settles, or else rehome or keep them as a five (babies plus dad) with the understanding that they may need splitting at some point if they fight.

As already said, dad will be fine with his sons. You would only neuter to avoid introductions and if you needed to keep a male and female together for some reason, perhaps after failed introductions between two males or after an accidental litter with no baby boys to be matched with dad. Neutering is quite invasive as the testes are within the abdomen.

Three degus should have a minimum of 3 levels at 100x50cm (40x20"), here is a chart with sizes for different group sizes
deguworld.proboards.com/thread/9396/forums-cage-size-recommendations So the four ladies would need an extra level of that size, or of course you can make the levels longer or deeper, whatever suits you. Plywood is best for the structure, wee proofing, chewability and cost come into play for the shelf material. Substrate needs to be dust free but can be shavings or paper based. They need large wheels and/or a saucer, they can be difficult to find in large enough sizes, they need to be 12" diameter or more, bigger for a saucer. They need lots of wood to chew, they are voracious chewers.

[jennk]

Okay, so yesterday, I went to good will and found a nice bookshelf that I am going to convert onto two enclosures today, one for the boys and one for the girls. It is 6 foot tall, has a total of five levels and about 30 in long. Do you think this will work? I will only be keeping the four adult females in the end unless I can come up with enough money to neuter the male

[moletteuk]

What's it made of and how deep are the shelves? Ideally it should be longer so they have a clear length to get up to a good speed, but the depth of the shelves could be a bigger issue, if they are less than about 16" it's difficult to place large items on the shelf (like a nest box) and still have room for the degus to get past the object. If there are any little holes for placing the shelves at different heights, these will need covering. A wardrobe can be a better option for converting, but if you already bought the bookshelf we will try and help you make the best of it.