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Post by julia123 on Nov 24, 2015 17:54:25 GMT
Hi All
I noticed this morning that George has a cataract appearing in his left eye. He is also very vocal today, but he's eating and playing on his wheel and interacting with his brother Gilbert.
Ive done a bit of reading but am still unsure if there is anything I can do - please advise. They are rescues and very difficult to handle - impossible in fact. I think they are about 6ish.
I feed Supreme degu sticks and also Beaphar degu mix. They dont eat veg and I dont offer fruit. They have farm hay and timothy hay and a dried herb mix (plantain, dandelion, chamomile, echinacea, nettle)
The only treats I feed are maybe 1/8 a fenugreek crunchie once a week - I'm not big on treats.
My concern is the Beaphar mix as it contains locust bean which I know is highish in sugar. But Ive read a unilateral cataract is unlikely to be diabetes and the rest of their diet is clean.
Thanks in advance
Julia
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Post by yasmin on Nov 24, 2015 19:16:35 GMT
From my experience and according to my vet, there isn't much you can do. I have one degu, Makoto, with a unilateral cataract; it is likely to be more an issue of heredity/poor genetics than diet though I have tried to modify his diet, adding more dried and fresh plant matter and seeds and less pellets – there's been no improvement but no degradation either. Degus usually adapt to their limited sight so George should be fine. Locust bean is an odd ingredient for a degu food. I am not personally familiar with Supreme degu sticks or Beaphar degu mix; however, check out deguworld.proboards.com/thread/17365/commercial-food-chart in the Diet and Nutrition section of this forum, "Commercial Food Chart" for more details. Are you open to trying a different food and/or adding more plant matter/seeds to their diet? |
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Post by julia123 on Nov 24, 2015 20:12:43 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 24, 2015 20:24:45 GMT
The cataracts could be genetic, age related, or osmotic, the only ones you can do anything about are osmotic ones as carbohydrates and sugar in the diet can contribute to them forming. Both of the foods you are feeding contain significant carbs in the form of grains (and also the locust bean sugars), so it is worth switching them as much as you can for grainless ones and adding in more forage. Yasmin already linked you to our food chart, you will see there is versele laga Crispy (which isn't usually so well liked) and also JR Farm grainless guinea or grainless chinchilla that are worth trying (available from Zooplus). Most degus enjoy dried forage more than fresh, have a browse in the food section, for more ideas, or you can have a look at the food guide for more links deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide You can really build up this side of their diet which is great for their general health so they are less reliant on pellets. |
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Post by uglibug on Nov 25, 2015 9:40:37 GMT
Our Dopey was virtually blind her entire life through cataracts and she always seemed to cope quite well, it didn't affect her quality of life at all. We just had to be aware when moving things around or adding new stuff that she couldn't see it and would often bump into them until she worked out and remembered where it was.
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Post by julia123 on Nov 25, 2015 10:30:47 GMT
Thanks both - wow that's a lot of info to take in!! I'm not sure I understand it all fully. All of the commercial foods seem bad in that list! Gilbert and George seem to take the Supreme sticks but then I find them hidden round their cage! They do love dinner time and wait for me to top up their bowl - they don't eat the pellet portion of their Beaphar mix.... perhaps this is where I am going wrong. I have a hamster bowl that I fill and its never empty....
What commercial food do you guys use?
Given the confusion over the foods and I have a concern over the high sugar of the grainless feeds - would it be ok to start by not topping up their food bowl until they have eaten it all and instead increasing their forage? They do get a good handful of forage most days, perhaps I need to make this daily? I will have a read through all the threads but want to start making changes today.
I've had a quick look and can't find the safe plants and trees list. I feed bunny safe forage currently. Would you be able to give me the link please?
I have two bunnies with cataracts so I'm familiar with the care aspects - just concerned as to the cause of Georges and want to do everything I can. Its cloudy not white and presents as a small disc shape in the middle of his eye.
Seems I have my work cut out trying to make sure the carbs are low - thought I could trust a degu specific food! I'm nervous of cutting out commercial food as I want to make sure they get their nutrients - what a mine field!!
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 25, 2015 11:15:37 GMT
The diet info can seem a bit overwhelming at first, I'm sure you will get your head around it if you mull it over for a while and then try re-reading some of it, do ask if there is anything you aren't sure about. The diet changes might not help the cataracts at all, but they will be to their general benefit anyway, and you will know you tried, and he will adapt to the loss of vision. You are right, none of the commercial foods are brilliant, so we usually recommend mixing 2 or 3, but if you want to go grainless your choices are more limited. I would definitely suggest versele laga Crispy and JR Farm grainless guinea, but just get one bag of each in case they won't eat them, mine will only eat a few Crispy pellets, but they seem to quite like the JR Farm. Don't worry about the fruit sugars in the JRFarm, I think the effect is tiny compared to a food with a large majority of grains in it, you could try the grainless chinchilla mix and then you can pick out the apple and rose hips, but some degus won't eat the grass pellets in there that make up a significant portion of the mix. You could consider trying some Pre Alpin cobs. I also feed Science Selective stars as they have good calcium content. I would ditch the Beaphar if they aren't eating the pellets as they will be missing out on a lot of the vitamin and mineral supplements, and it was chock full of barley the last time I saw it. This thread has some pictures and discussion of commercial foods that might help you (including discussion of JRF grainless chinchilla) deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15234/pre-foods-closeThese threads are a place to start with forage info: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15657/bought-herb-leaf-flower-mixes?page=1deguworld.proboards.com/thread/8772/safe-plants-herbs-leaves-consumption?page=1Yes, start offering the forage every day. We are past the time of year for collecting yourself, but you could buy some from Zooplus when you order the food. There is also a german company where you can buy amazing forage, you can also get good seed mixes, and cobs deguworld.proboards.com/thread/19090/hansemanns-german-food-shop If you can get a decent supply of varied forage that they like you can really cut down the commercial food (or even eliminate it). Oil seeds, including some high calcium oil seeds make a great diet supplement and are great for treats deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-charts |
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Post by julia123 on Nov 26, 2015 11:10:38 GMT
More great advice - thank you! I will get some of the JR Farm grainless guinea and gradually mix it in. Is the versele laga Crispy the guinea pig one? I still have forage from summer, I pick and dry it daily when its out. I'm nearly out so have also bought a load from my favourite supplier The Hay Experts - best quality I've found and best variety too :-)I have 7 bunnies so always have a good selection of hay and forage in. This was my last order :-)  |
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Post by julia123 on Nov 26, 2015 11:17:08 GMT
I also grow raspberries for the leaves and pick and dry blackberry leaves, they are still about so must get some more before they go.
I also grow sage, rosemary, lavender and oregano but haven't dried any of these as the bunnies aren't that keen, they have gone over now apart from the sage.
I did have a huge supply of dried rose petals from my plants but they have been scoffed now!
If forage and dried herbs are the best way to go that thats brilliant for me as I'm familiar with them. Just need to check all the ones I feed the buns are ok for Gilbert & George. They do love their plantain and dandies and marigold!
Edit:
These are the forage and dried items I currently feed my buns:
Hazel
Dandelions
Plantain (greater and ribwort)
Blackberry leaves
Raspberry leaves
Marigold
Chamomile (aware of sedative properties)
Lemon balm (aware of sedative properties)
Willow (not to buns on metacam due to salicin)
Birch (not to buns on metacam due to salicin)
Yarrow (they weren't keen)
Nettle
Cleavers
Vetch
Coltsfoot (sparingly)
Echinacea / coneflower (5 days on 5 days off)
Parsley (usually fresh but I dry some)
Corriander (usually fresh but I dry some)
Dill (usually fresh but I dry some)
There is a brilliant Facebook group called Traditional Herbs for Pet Rabbits that has loads of advice on forage
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 26, 2015 20:26:28 GMT
Great, I'm preaching to the converted!  The whole philosophy of feeding forage to degus is just the same as it is for rabbits, it's what their guts are designed for. Your stash looks great. You could probably make substantial savings at Hansemanns with you having so many mouths to feed, let us know what you think if you decide to try them. All the things you listed are safe for degus, the only warning I think that you don't list is no vetch seed pods. You can feed mostly forage and no pellets at all if you want to. In this case you do need to supply vitamin D artificially, either through a UV lamp or some people on another forum crush up human vit D tablets ('SAB' diet) into small doses. You also supplement the forage with a seed mix that is mostly oil seeds and includes some high calcium ones, you can buy degu seed mixes ready made from Ratrations or Hansemanns. The VL Crispy is for 'degus & chinchillas'. |
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Post by julia123 on Nov 27, 2015 11:41:22 GMT
Thanks yes sorry I forgot to mention the vetch seed pods, my buns weren't keen anyway.
Just had a look at the Hansemanns site, think I might struggle navigating that due to the language but will have a closer look thanks.
I haven't ordered the foods yet, but will do it later. Meanwhile most of the food was gone yesterday when I went to do their hay and forage! So not constantly topping up the bowl is definitely a good start - unless they are hiding it somewhere to trick me ;-)
Not got onto reading about seeds yet - gosh there's a lot more to learn!!
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Post by julia123 on Nov 27, 2015 11:51:22 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 27, 2015 16:53:05 GMT
The JRF Feast still contains substantial quantities of grains, and is very low in calcium and vitamin D. It's OK to mix in with a couple of other products, but no good for you right now trying to cut out grains. I think JRF do make a grainless degu product but nowhere in the UK stocks it.
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Post by julia123 on Nov 27, 2015 20:48:34 GMT
This one? www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JR-Farm-Grainless-Mix-Degu-1-4lbs-/221873138743Can get it from Germany via Ebay postage is steep contains:Timothy grass, pea flakes, orchard grass, meadow grass, plantain, red clover, meadow fescue, lady's mantle, nettle leaves, carrot slices, broad bean flakes, peppermint, chamomile flowers, fennel, parsnip, marigold blossoms, dandelion root, rose petals, carrot cubes, linseed, mung beans, black cumin, dandelion leaves, parsley, coneflower plus some added Vitamins: A 10.000 IU, D³ 1.000 iE, C 250 mg, E 40 mg sounds easy enough to make up apart from the added vitamins - forage diet again :-) I will get the guinea pig one and keep going on the forage - love watching them with a big leaf in their hands :-) |
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Post by julia123 on Nov 27, 2015 21:00:23 GMT
I'm having trouble on the Zooplus site - I need to make up my order to £9 but its only showing me favourites?
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Post by julia123 on Nov 28, 2015 14:45:02 GMT
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Post by moletteuk on Nov 28, 2015 15:33:28 GMT
Yes, that's the degu grainless mix on ebay, I'm not sure if JRF do a degu grainless pellet equivalent to the guinea pig one.
I hadn't seen the VL Complete before, it looks very similar to the Crispy, if not identical, but difficult to be sure because not all the nutrition info is listed. I'd probably get the smaller bag of Crispy in case they don't like it.
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Post by julia123 on Nov 30, 2015 13:20:16 GMT
Phew - finally ordered the JRF grainless and the VL crispy - and a rope toy to make up the price!
Thank you!! Will let you know how they like them!
They are loving the extra forage! How much do you feed? I was just throwing a handful over their timmy hay but have put some on a bowl now so I can check what they are eating.
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Post by moletteuk on Dec 2, 2015 17:31:46 GMT
You can feed as much forage as they will eat. Something like a good handful a day, the limit is when they start getting picky and leaving too much of it. I think it helps to feed it somewhere separate and then it's easier to keep an eye on how much they are eating.
Did your zooplus stuff come yet?
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Post by julia123 on Dec 3, 2015 0:52:40 GMT
Hi, yes it arrived today :-) the JR Farm stuff smells yummy! I mixed s little of each in with their Beaphar, but George just grabbed the maize from the Beaphar and Gilbert was stuffing his face with dandelions!! I will see how much is gone tomorrow.
Thanks so much for your help :-)
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The whole philosophy of feeding forage to degus is just the same as it is for rabbits, it's what their guts are designed for. Your stash looks great. You could probably make substantial savings at Hansemanns with you having so many mouths to feed, let us know what you think if you decide to try them. All the things you listed are safe for degus, the only warning I think that you don't list is no vetch seed pods.