Help with our new babies (Dried flakey tails)

[littlebrooksy]

Hey all,

should have thought to put this with my thank you post but didnt think about it until my daughter asked me to post for help.

We adopted 2 little boys today who although were kept clean had a wheel each and a house weren't kept entirely properly with a few things I have learned to be improper and I would just like to know if I am right and if any of them could be what has causes the flaking shin on Tom's Tail and the mild dandruff type affliction they booth seem to have on their bodies (only Tom also has it on his tail)

1
was constant access to their bath which was full of Diatomaceous Earth (now I have only ever come across this for the treatment of mites in Chickens before so it was a little shocking to think of it being used as a clay substitute but is it ok I have heard of it being advised to be mixed with the clay before for chinchillas but never on its own should we bin this and buy chin sand or mix it or is it ok to continue use?)

2 
they were only ever fed Degu pellets not even hay. we have now introduced 5 oz of hay to their cage and put it in their feed bowl that came with them and after a lot of sniffing (and we swear we heard a type of gowling at it can Degus growl? lol) they actually tried some and slowly are eating it and the dandelion leaves we picked washed and added compliments of our back garden.

3 
the children bought a brilliant plastic tunnel (from pet shop saying rodent safe) and the goos have loved it and taken to sleeping in it this evening do people think its safe to leave in with them (its the sort you can shape with metal running through it) or should I pull it out and buy them a cardboard one tomorrow?


Thanks all we are already loving watching our little men dance around the cage lets see if this works below should be a piccy of them and the plastic tube.

[littlebrooksy]

ok will try again lol

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[uglibug]

We have only ever used chin sand for our goos so I'm not sure on that one, but poor nutrition could cause dry, flakey skin. Have you concidered adding some oil seeds to their diet? Ours love their seed pots and if we scatter it over the floor of the cage they get to have fun foraging for it too.

I think with regard to the tunnel it depends on the goos. We can put pretty much anything in with our younger boys and it'll be fine, they're just not big chewers, but anything in with the girls is well tested for chewability right away. I would keep an eye on it and if it starts to look chewed or battered then replace it with a cardboard one.

[moletteuk]

I wouldn't use the D.E., I tend to use a mix of chin dust and chin sand and then you are getting a range of particle sizes.

The sand and/ or the diet could be responsible for the poor skin, hopefully it will improve quickly. In addition to the hay I would suggest offering a range of forage, fresh or dried depending on what they like, the dandelions are a great start, you can add things like safe tree leaves, daisy, plantains (broad or narrow), clover, hogweed, yarrow, marigolds, nasturtiums, and tons more things are possible if you check out the diet section of the forum. An oil seed mix with some high calcium seeds will be great for teeth and bones and then you can add in other oil seeds like linseed (flax), hemp, milk thistle, sesame should give you a visible improve in skin and coat condition. Start with feeding guide for more info on diet deguworld.proboards.com/thread/16425/degu-feeding-guide

Degus make a full range of sounds, including growling and quite a few other 'annoyed' noises!

Plastic isn't generally safe, you may or may not get away with the tube overnight, it wouldn't normally last much longer with most degus! They will probably enjoy a cardboard tube and some cardboard boxes and some kitchen or toilet paper.

Love the pic, glad you managed to suss out the hosting and linking

[littlebrooksy]

Touch wood they seem to be enjoying striping their new seesaw of bark at the moment but that's what I was worried it was brought with the intention of being in their play area rather than their cage but Tom took a real shine to it.

Thanks for the D.E advise that's what I thought and we will get them some tomorrow along with a cardboard tube for them to sleep in and keep the plastic for their supervised play time in their play pen or kitchen.

thanks for the seed advice we will look for some tomorrow for them we have only had them for about 12 hours so not long enough to get too much more than the new toys but they are booked in with the vet for a welcome check up offered to all new "patients" middle of week after next (we thought a couple of weeks to settle in first would probably be needed) so if not cleared by then or if it is something more hopefully it will get picked up then.

I have wasted quiet a lot of time today talking to them and watching them they are quiet characters loving them.
if you dont mind is there anything you can see missing (they have an other cage going on top as soon as I get to it which will double there space but for now will what they have be enough? they have made some hay in toilet tubes for when they actually settle into the idea that hay is a food not a threat and I have asked on a free site for safe wood branches piking some up tomorrow. we weren't quiet expecting them this early but these two were brought to my attention in desperate need of a new home and I couldn't resist as we planned to get them next week end anyway.

[littlebrooksy]

their cage(excuse the mess around them please)

[moletteuk]

They seem to have the essentials for now, you will have a lot more scope when you get the second cage added on. You could try a pile of hay and a pile of forage wherever they like to hang out, that way it encourages them to have a casual nibble. You can add more nest places and hidyboxes when they have more room and maybe some logs and sticks - lets see what turns up in your free haul of safe wood. Even after you add the second cage you could extend the top shelves to a double plank to make them a bit wider, or perhaps add a hammock to make good use of the space.

Have a look at our nutrition charts for help choosing seeds deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-charts You can buy ready made mixes from Ratrations of Hansemanns in Germany, but you should be able to put something together from a decent supermarket. For your boys with their dry skin I would suggest fennel, coriander, poppy, sesame, linseed and hemp and maybe expand the range later.

[littlebrooksy]

Sept 23, 2015 10:04:38 GMT moletteuk said:

They seem to have the essentials for now, you will have a lot more scope when you get the second cage added on. You could try a pile of hay and a pile of forage wherever they like to hang out, that way it encourages them to have a casual nibble. You can add more nest places and hidyboxes when they have more room and maybe some logs and sticks - lets see what turns up in your free haul of safe wood. Even after you add the second cage you could extend the top shelves to a double plank to make them a bit wider, or perhaps add a hammock to make good use of the space.

Have a look at our nutrition charts for help choosing seeds deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15602/vegetable-seed-nut-nutrition-charts You can buy ready made mixes from Ratrations of Hansemanns in Germany, but you should be able to put something together from a decent supermarket. For your boys with their dry skin I would suggest fennel, coriander, poppy, sesame, linseed and hemp and maybe expand the range later.

We have just changed them onto Hemp bedding and hoping it is safe for then to eat too it was recommended for degus so hope this is right?

They have a bowl of hey next to their bed but seem to have taken to piling in Tom's wheel we got them a log from the pets hop stuffed with hay and hid a few pumpkin seeds sesame seeds and sunflower seeds with in the hay and they have a log sew saw we also brought a plastic hammock bed which is now stuffed with tissue and an empty box stuffed with hay and lid back on is also in there now glad they have enough they are out with free run for about 21/2 hours today (an hour and half this morning then just away from an hour this afternoon and they are now piled snoozing in time for baths and bed for my 3 lol) we are considering having some glass made for the bottom so they can have their bedding deeper for a little tunnel and digging space once we get the other cage sorted (friends a glazier and said it wouldn't be hard to do a collar for inside of the mesh or even a simple rank for bottom and remove tray placing it all on top but still drawing up the ideas for that I did wonder if wood might be more versatile.

Old owner said that nibbles was the Confident one and tom a little more timid but they seem to have reserved roles is that normal? Or could nibbles be stressed.

Thank you so much for advice and sorry I have so many questions I just want them to have it all right and be happy and hope to eventually move them on to a natural diet eventually but as they are still a little unsure of the hay and greens it maybe a slower transition than planned.

Also how often can they have the above seeds? And kids wondered if they could have dry roasted pepper, parsnip, carrot or celery (my kids like it for a snack) and if so would they be a once a week or could they have any more often still a little confused when it comes to veg.

[bouncy]

For seeds, try a local pet shop. A lot of the bird seed mixes (make sure it's veggie) will have a good mix of oily seeds, so you can get a relatively small amount to see how they go down

[moletteuk]

Hemp bedding is safe if they eat a little bit.

Just observe and see how they use the cage and let them guide you as to where they like to eat their hay, trying it in a few places is a good way to see what they prefer.

I guess glass kickboards could work, but they might need to be toughened glass, I'm not sure. I have a glass sandbath but that's very thick glass and not in the firing line for things banging into it like kickboards might be.

Are you sure you have the boys the right way around if their characters seem reversed? It could be that they are reacting differently to the stress of the move and may relax into their previous roles, but boldness and shyness tend to apply in any situation whereas some other characteristics can be affected more be a new situation. They can react inexplicably differently to different people. I wouldn't worry too much anyway, just enjoy getting to know the boys for yourself.

Normally they can have up to half or 3/4 of a teaspoon each per day of those seeds, but keep an eye on their weight, and expand the range from those I mentioned. Be careful with birdseed mixes as those usually contain a high percentage of cereal grains so are more for a treat.

They can have small pieces of those dried veg, they can have them every day in very small treat sized pieces. The sugar content is high and the calcium content tends to be low so they are best regarded as treats than a main part of the diet - general plants, leaves and forage should be the main sources of fibre and vitamins.

[littlebrooksy]

Big thank you we have dried them some carrot peelings (about 1/2 the outer edge of 1 carrot 1 parsnip in both rounds and small cubes (about 2-3 millimeters sqaured), they won't touch celery and have put them in a pot for treats.

Because of the colour difference we are certain we have it the right way around and nibbles is becoming more mischievous now as expected which is a relief and we have done first weighing at 240g(tom) and 242 (nibbles) they are on the heavier side of the scale I think but they have a good fat layer no signs of overweight or impaired movement so thinking they may just be "big boned" lol

Big thank you for the nuts I have been a little apprehensive of feeding them too much of anything other than dandelion leaves we are trying to put together this diet we found on here on a different thread as it seems easy to understand My winter food is also quite similar. I present you the mix from last winter (the text is from last winter, I translated it only and adapted it slightly):

Seeds, nuts & Co.
I'll start with the favourite food of my degus, the seeds.

Seed mixture (self created mixture consisting of bought seeds)
- paddy / rough rice *
- Mung beans*
- canary grass seeds*
- niger seed / ramtil*
- turnip rape seeds*
- spinach seeds*
- quinoa
- rosehip seeds
- various millet seeds
- sesame
(- grass seeds)
(- hemp seeds Hanfsamen)
- sunflower seeds (self collected)
- beech nuts (self collected)

* ingredients labelled with a star I use in large quantities and are an important part of my mixture.
() ingredients in brackets are only contained in small quantities.

The mixture consists of different ingredients, I always mix in a new composition, when I buy new seeds. In the mixture listed above I used a germination seed mixture for forest birds (contains mainly oil seeds) and a wild seed mixture as base. I added then left overs from previous mixtures, pure seeds for birds (paddy, canary grass seeds), but also pseudo grains like quinoa (grocery stuff).

Nuts & Co. (self collectet)
- walnuts
- hazelnuts
- rose of Sharon seedcases
- acorn
- beech nuts
- pumpkin seeds

Dried fruits (self collected)
- hawthorn berries
- barberries, in small quantities

Herbs, flowers & Co.

flower mixture
- rose of Sharon
- calendula
- rose flowers Rosenblüten
- sunflower flower leaves Sonnenblumen-Blütenblätter
- red clover
- common chicory
- mullein
- peppermint (inflorescences)
- annual fleabane
- various mallows (Malva species)

Herbal and shrub mixture (self collected)
- hazel leaves*
- rose of Sharon leaves*
- raspberry leaves*
- hawthorn leaves
- hop
- greater plantain
- blackberry leaves
- wild strawberry foliage

* ingredients labelled with a star are main ingredients of the mixture


commercial tea mixture "Nieren- und Blasenbeschwerde" (bought)
A mixture from the pharmacy called "Nieren- und Blasenbeschwerde" (kidney and bladder suffering). The best before date was 1/2009 but the herbs smelled well.
- birch leaves
- hawthorn
- rosehips
- cat's-whiskers (Orthosiphon)
- nettle


Feeding
The feeding is quite simple. Ingredients from the category "seeds, nuts & Co." I feed almost daily, occasionally also as titbits from my hands. The seed mixtures I offer 2-3 times per week, but depending on the hunger of my degus and how well they feed their diet, I adapt the quantity and frequency of feeding. Mostly I make three piles on three different places in the cage. The degus can choice one of the piles and each degu has its own pile. Sometimes I offer nuts (with shell) while I create the seed piles. It distract the degus from the seeds and avoids a bit fights for food. That works fine. Hawthorn berries are a favourite titbit I offer sometimes with the regular mixture, sometimes I lay them in the cage. I offer them only in smaller quantities, because the degus ignore them, when they have eaten some berries and I offered to large quantities.

Items from the category "herbs, flowers & co." I feed less regular, mostly 1 times per week and give a palm sized quantity of flower, and also smaller quantities from my shrub- and herbmixture and from the commercial tea mixture.

About 2-3 times per week I feed also green stuff (fresh herbs etc.). Actually we have snow [remark: when I wrote this text, it was winter! ;D] and I can only offer spider plant (is much liked) and Callisia (they also eat it). In addition I offer some herbs, growing indoors like sage (often) or parsley (seldom). When the snow disapears, I will collect grasses outdoors, blackberry leaves and some few herbs I can find during the winter.

In the cage I have a certain offer of branchens and twigs with dried leaves or without leaves and spruce tiwgs. The degus feed on them occasionally. In addition I give hay and grass which I harvest during the winter, partly fresh, partly dried.


Read more: deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15670/homemade-mixes#ixzz3mkCT0XBF

and daughter has started video blogging her process of learning to own them which has been great for the learning front and next week their tutor is going to tach them about recording their weights with us.

Hopefully we are getting it right they are out about 2-3 hours a day and love sunbathing in their cage (cage isn't on the floor it's on a low coffee table in the window so they get enough sun and at night it's pulled into the room away from any potienal drafts. Please let us know if you think we are doing anything wrong still a real learning curve lol

[moletteuk]

You are quoting from an interesting thread there. A couple of issues have arisen since then. The first one is vitamin D, if you are feeding 100% homemade mixes then you need to supplement vitamin D artificially as it doesn't occur naturally in food in more than trace amounts. You can supplement either through drops, crushed tablets or perhaps in a more natural way be providing a UV lamp so the degus can synthesise their own vit D. Many people decide they would rather continue to feed a certain percentage of pellets (which have vit D already supplemented) to avoid having to artificially supplement it themselves. (Others, particularly in Germany, prefer to not feed commercial food at all and also are experimenting and considering the options concerning vit D).

The next thing is that some people are trying to move away from cereal grains, due to the speed that they are turned to glucose on digestion. In particular if your degu has cataracts it is worth trying to eliminate all grains as a common type of cataracts is related to glucose. We are moving more towards degus getting their energy requirements met through the digestible fibre in plants and also from oil seeds (which have other nutritional benefits), which is closer to what degus eat in the wild.

The third thing is the importance of total calcium content and the possible effect of too much phosphorus in relation to calcium. We aim for calcium content of 1% or so of the total diet. We try to keep an eye on the calcium to phosphorus ratio which is said to be ideal at around 2 parts calcium to one part phosphorus, although there is less information about this. Good calcium levels are achieved by feeding lots of meadow type plants, and additional calcium can be supplied via high calcium oil seeds. The main way to control phosphorus content is to avoid cereal grains which have very high phosphorus content.

The good news is that there is no real need to get bogged down in these things as most of our current information points to the same thing. The diet should contain lots of forage as a main priority, a variety of oil seeds, some well chosen pellets (if you don't wish to deal with vit D), and nuts, roots and veg can be used as supplements.

[littlebrooksy]

oo thank you I will then keep some pellets in their diet then to keep the Vit C for now and actually thanks to Duncan (hubby/kids daddy) being off and taking them out for the day I actually had some time to re go over my confusing research (because the majority was done with a 10 year old in tow the sites she chose were less helpful but having time child free and being able to not only read the whole of the above thread but also lots of SAB information on degus-international-community I think I have all the information I need to compile a selection of locally available plant matter including a few I will have to buy (mainly on the seed front) and hubby has even gone through my list and changed his landscaping plans for our garden to allow space to grow a large number here in our garden so feeling a lot better about it all I have a seed list and getting help with working the ratio's out from a maths geek friend for the seeds have a flowers mix list slowly taking shape and already found about 15 plants I have access to locally which once mixed will offer everything the Goos will need I just need to buy some of it in until I have had time to collect and store up a selection. 

luckily for us the children's Tutor Paul lives on a farm andhas about 6 different degu safe trees for the wood and has also offered to make them some special hay scattering some seeds of certain plants on the Degu safe list and has a big barn full of old fashioned dryers to dry it and store it for us which is fantastic and will be a great project for my kids and his grand childen all of whom are home ed

feeling a bit more positive today will post up my finished mixes when I get the workings done.

we are going to be making them a digging pot today can't do a box for now but we will get there and honestly love the way my daughter has embraced the ownership I still help her out a lot but she does the brunt of the work and nibbles has started to come out of her shell and be the confident little boy that was described to us coming out for a cuddle this morning walking up my arm and nesting in my hair (so cute) thank you all for all the help on understanding the food after reading through a few of your posts again after reading the SAB breakdown again with a refreshed brain rather than a late night frazzled one It has all finally dropped into place I think I was making it a lot harder than it really is lol :0)

[bouncy]

Don't know if it's something you would consider, but I couldn't face them kicking even more stuff around, and have historically had issues with animal burrows and moths. Instead, I gave my goos a kiddies ball pit! They also chase the balls around the floor

[moletteuk]

You will get to understand the diet more as you go along and see how the degus respond. If you've seen the DIC diet, and the info presented here and degutopia you have seen the different philosophies and can make your own mind up what is best for you and your degus. Wow, I wish I had access to a barn and dryer, that will make plant collecting so much easier.

Nice to hear the goos are settling in and it's working well with the whole family