|
Post by aurora on Aug 6, 2015 8:30:32 GMT
Hello there wise people,
I need your advice. I have four lovely degu sisters who are approaching 5 years old. One, Cheeks,was taken to the vet two weeks ago with overgrown incisors and a discharge from the eye. She had lost a lot of weight (she was previously the chubbiest of the four as she ran around the cage hoovering up after the others so the weight loss was not immediately apparent)
The vet clipped her incisors and gave me pain relief and antibiotics for the eye. She was quite traumatised by this visit and didn't eat when she came back. Two days later (she now weighed 220g which was crazy light for her) we went back as I had asked about sedating her to get her molars looked at as she was grinding her teeth. The vet was lovely but said that the risk was too high for sedation (GA) and he took her away and ground down the spurs on her back teeth. She came back to me with more pain relief and he said she had little ulcers from the spurs so eating would have been painful. I had some liquid recovery food and to her disgust I syringed this into her several times a day for four days. She hated it.
But gradually she perked up. She put on weight (at one point she got back up to 253g!!) And through all the soft and treat food I managed to get down her she eventually went back to some of her hard food. Yay thought I, she is getting better.
Not so. I have noticed her pawing at her mouth and her weight has dropped again and she is making such a racket when she eats (which is clearly tiring her out) that it's clear that something else is wrong teeth wise. She has a bumpy head and jaw and with the discharge from her eye returning and the fact that she sneezes when eating I suspect that her tooth roots are overgrown.
This is only 2 weeks from the original appointment. So she recovered and then got worse really swiftly.
So. What do I do? She cold go back to the vet. I am away for a weeks holiday as of Friday but could probably take her to my sister in law who is experienced with rescuing and nursing guinea pigs. But am I right to put her through this trauma? Or am I just doing that for me?
Is it any life for a degu if they're constantly having be pinned down and have their teeth filed?
Poor little Cheeks. She is such a character but I'm at a bit of a loss.
Thought would be appreciated and thanks for reading this massive ramble. I've had some great advice over the years from this forum.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 6, 2015 11:10:17 GMT
My first thought is that 2 weeks seems very quick for her to be having mouth symptoms again. I think she needs further investigation, I would say another mouth examination and I would want xrays at this point to check the roots. I have never heard of a vet trimming molars without sedation before, I have no clue how they would achieve this! Perhaps the stress of this meant they could have missed a spur? How well do you know the vet, are there any other vets in your area? Obviously there are risks with anaesthetics but it is getting fairly common on the forum for degus to have short anaesthetics for dental work and we haven't had a bad reaction to the anaesthetic yet.
If she is pawing at her mouth, then there is definitely something wrong and she definitely needs to see a vet again, I think you need more information to make any decisions about her future, the only way to get more information is with another examination and xrays.
Something else for you to think about for Cheeks and her sisters is diet. Degus with dental disease or at risk of dental disease can really benefit from a forage based diet with good calcium and mineral content.
|
|
|
Post by aurora on Aug 6, 2015 15:10:29 GMT
Thank you so much for your response. I really appreciate it.
I've watched her again today and she's not pawing at her mouth, it's more that she's rubbing her nose a bit. It's an odd gesture, appears to be unconscious rather than a sign of distress. She is bright eyed and had a good lick of peanut butter (would never normally give this of course, it's one with just peanuts and sunflower seeds and nothing else) off a spoon.
I shall put her back on metacam as it may be that she is simply in discomfort when chewing and give her to my SIL this week while I am away. SIL is very experienced with small furries and I trust her to understand the importance of keeping her hydrated and fully nourished even if she is having difficulty. I have booked her into the vet when I get back.
The vet rasped the spurs off by making her keep her mouth open. She didn't like it of course. Poor wee thing. The first time she went she had her incisors clipped. Having looked again I think the big lower incisors are still too long and she definitely has something weird going on with her upper incisors.
I have read up on the diet and they definitely need less hard food so that is something that I will sort out. They have not had dental issues before and are nearly five. Guess they saved it up.
Thank you for your time and response. Much appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by Maravilla on Aug 6, 2015 15:30:07 GMT
I have never heard of a vet trimming molars without sedation before, I have no clue how they would achieve this! My vet has done this with 2 of my little ones. It was not easy, this is true. But one of them was an old lady, 8.5 years, which probably would not have survived sedation. The other one was a younger degu but there it was only one spur. I have to say that my vet now is quite experienced as we have such a big amount of degus which need vet care so he has the constant chance of learning and improving. The discharge from the eye was probably due to teeth problems and I am not sure if antibiotics were really necessary. They might help if there is an infection but we should not forget that they also have side effects. Sorry for asking, do you mean general anaesthesia by injecting an anaesthetic? Does your vet have experiences with inhalation anaesthesia. I don't say that this is always the best method, as it strongly depends on the vet and the animal. But with minor teeth corrections it could be an option. I also think that x-rays and a more detailed investigation should be done. Lots of vets are still clipping, mine does it too, but it is not the best method as it can harm the jaw bone. Does your degu eat on her own or do you force feed her? What food do you mean by "hard food"? Pellets? Have you tried to offer her some fresh green (grass, dandelions, etc.)?
|
|
|
Post by aurora on Aug 6, 2015 15:53:39 GMT
Thank you for your response.
By hard food I mean degu nuggets.
I assumed all anaesthetic was inhalation. I will ask the vet.
When I first got her back I had to feed her. Gradually she was able to eat more and more solid food so I have been giving her things which are highly attractive such as ground and whole oats, mushy oats, fresh peas, fresh herbs and ground up nuggets. She has also had a lot of sunflower seed and pumpkin seed (wouldn't normally feed those again but needs must) and was eating those independently.
Thank you for your response.
|
|
|
Post by Maravilla on Aug 6, 2015 16:24:57 GMT
She has also had a lot of sunflower seed and pumpkin seed (wouldn't normally feed those again but needs must) Why not? Pumpkin and sunflower seeds are great treats. And as you say, right now it is important that she is eating. Have you tried to offer her the soft food on a plate so that she can eat when she wants to do it? A lot of degus refuse to eat after teeth corrections but will start after some hours or the next day. I would not worry too much if it only lasts for some hours. Forcing her to eat means a lot of stress too and is not risk-free. I consider this the very last option but would never do it as first measure.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 6, 2015 16:25:29 GMT
I have never heard of a vet trimming molars without sedation before, I have no clue how they would achieve this! My vet has done this with 2 of my little ones. It was not easy, this is true. But one of them was an old lady, 8.5 years, which probably would not have survived sedation. The other one was a younger degu but there it was only one spur. I have to say that my vet now is quite experienced as we have such a big amount of degus which need vet care so he has the constant chance of learning and improving. Interesting! Make sure she he has a choice of fresh, natural branches, sticks, and twigs to chew on, this may help her incisors.
|
|
|
Post by aurora on Aug 6, 2015 18:26:37 GMT
Sunflower seeds etc are fed as treats normally, so sparingly. But whatever she will eat is what she is getting. She had a day of fresh peas yesterday but after a few this morning she was not interested. I ground up some oats and nuggets into a powder and she devoured a couple of teaspoons of that. When she was really poorly I made the oats into a slushy porridge for her.
I will keep you posted. She is fine in herself and runs for the door whiskers whiffling when I open it.
My SIL is really good with her guineas so she will be in good hands. Bless her.
Thanks for your thoughts. Molette, there are loads of different chewable substances for her and she is usually a great chewer but I think what might have happened is that the spurs have hurt her mouth and she then stopped chewing wood so incisors went nuts. But that is entirely conjecture.
Thanks for your thoughts. Much appreciated.
|
|
|
Post by yasmin on Aug 6, 2015 20:44:58 GMT
Hello there wise people, One, Cheeks,was taken to the vet two weeks ago with overgrown incisors and a discharge from the eye. I have noticed her pawing at her mouth and her weight has dropped again and she is making such a racket when she eats (which is clearly tiring her out) that it's clear that something else is wrong teeth wise. She has a bumpy head and jaw and with the discharge from her eye returning and the fact that she sneezes when eating I suspect that her tooth roots are overgrown. Is it any life for a degu if they're constantly having be pinned down and have their teeth filed? The weepy eye, weight loss, bumpy head and jaw, and the discharge are concerning. XRays would confirm whether or not the molars are growing into her nasal cavity and/or into her eye socket and/or downward past her jaw. In my opinion, being pinned down and having their teeth filed is well worth every bit of life it gives them. I have one degu, Lilac, who has been battling these issues for years now. I swear she still finds enjoyment in life – snuggling with her daughters, eating treats, sitting on her wheel, and she totally loves taking her ribena-flavoured antibiotic and Metacam on peas.
|
|
|
Post by aurora on Aug 7, 2015 10:17:53 GMT
Thanks Yasmin. I am like a seesaw with her. She's so sparky just now (although refusing anything other than peanut butter at the monent) but she was so very traumatised by the previous vet visit. She is eagerly taking treats like sunflowerseeds but is then just burying them.
It's really nice to have everyone's thoughts and opinions.
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 7, 2015 17:11:44 GMT
They hide pain so well, you have to take any signs of discomfort really seriously and get things looked at right away, I think the short term trauma is less bad than longer term pain. If you have a gas anaesthetic then there is no struggle for them at all, they can be moved via tube into a sort of tent where the gas is introduced, and the next thing they know they are coming round and all done. I'm concerned that she isn't able to eat any hard food at all, I wouldn't wait. You could always phone the vet to discuss anaesthetic, explain you are willing to take the risk becuase you want to avoid the trauma (if that's how you feel).
|
|
|
Post by aurora on Aug 17, 2015 9:18:27 GMT
Hello all,
Just a quick update. She is back from a week with my SiL having been spoiled rotten but only eating soft food. She has been back to the vet and her lower incisors have been clipped as far back as we can get them, they were so very long. After the clipping she had to have food syringed down her again but today she's been licking up soft food. I am hoping that as the discomfort etc from having her teeth done calms down (she is still on metacam) she will be able to gradually progress onto harder food and then things that she can chew to keep her incisors in check.
I spoke to the vet at length about anaesthesia etc. She needs to bulk up a little bit (as she has lost so much weight) so fingers crossed that she will continue to eat healthily. She was running around on the wheel at my SiL even though she was feeling sorry for herself.
Your advice, as ever, is much appreciated.
She settled right back in with her sisters as if she'd never been away which was nice to see!
|
|
|
Post by moletteuk on Aug 17, 2015 11:28:52 GMT
This is a common dilemma, waiting and trying to put weight on before you do the anaesthetic, the problem is that it is very likely there is something going on with her molars that is causing the eating difficulties and weight loss, and until you do the anaesthetic/ xrays/ examination she can't be treated and is never going to put weight on. My advice is to do it now despite the risks, otherwise the risk is even higher that she will just fade away. I'm sorry to be so frank, and I know it's not easy when we say something different to your vet.
|
|
|
Post by deguconvert on Aug 17, 2015 18:55:14 GMT
Yikes! This is not fun for you, or for your lovely girl. I hope the very best for you and her. I am so glad she was reintegrated with her sisters so quickly and easily. That in itself is a wonder! Many owners have had issues with reintegration even after a short visit to the vet. I hope and pray that she will be into hard and fibrous foods quickly, and that your vet will be able to determine what is truly going on. I, too, think you really need an Xray.
|
|
|
Post by yasmin on Aug 17, 2015 22:00:44 GMT
Why are you considering anesthesia? Is it to have an X-ray done to confirm the extent of the molar invasion and to remove any new spurs from the molars? If so, bulk her up as quickly as you can with whatever high cal foods she can eat. Time is truly of the essence, as moletteuk has pointed out. If she won't eat, then do it asap. I went through this with my goo Lilac. When antibiotics wouldn't work to clear up her respiratory/eating issues, I decided to take the risk of anesthesia to find out for sure whether the molars had anything to do with it and to have any new spurs trimmed (didn't want her suffering from that). The vet was hesitant warning me that it is likely she would pass away; I would deal with this knowing that she was in a very bad way anyway and doing nothing meant risking her dying when something might be able to have been done for her. So I said "Go ahead, I'll take that risk." Fortunately, she made it through the anesthesia – and the direness of the molar root issue was confirmed – roots in her nasal cavity and down past her jaw. It's been a year and a half and she is still going "strong" on a very unhealthy diet of Metacam, Baytril (Ribena-flavoured, she loves it), thawed out peas, green beans, puffed rice, rolled oats, sunflower seeds, Crock Complete Herb, peanuts and slivers of hard food and dried veggies – anything I can convince her to eat (it's an ongoing minimum twice-daily hour-long challenge). The molar roots have now entered one of her eye sockets, and one in her lower jaw keeps becoming infected. But she still goes on the wheel and spends time with daughters. I have accepted now that any new spurs that might arise will probably mean the death of her but I still consider daily whether I should take her in and have them checked out and dealt with. One day I will, and that will probably be the day I say goodbye. If you are having difficulty deciding what to do, keep this thread active and let us know how she is doing (puffed up, hiding or playing and looking great?), what she will eat, and what she weighs. Also, just write down all the thoughts and feelings that are going on in your head. It may help.
|
|