rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 19, 2015 21:46:08 GMT
Hi,
I did have another thread but I've since realized that this section is for Degu Health, and this thread is on a slightly different topic.
So, one of my degus has been breathing heavily, occasionally wheezing and making an odd clicking noise, on and off since Saturday. He's gotten no worse and has no signs of any discharge or anything around his nose/eyes/etc... People have helped me establish that he probably has a respiratory infection, or his teeth are infecting his sinuses through overgrowing causing his breathing issues.
So, I did have a few questions, regarding these possible illnesses-
Respiratory infection:
What is the general outcome of these, and is he likely to survive, if he does have one of these? I've caught whatever he has pretty early, if that helps. Also, does anyone have any experience with these and how long was recovery if all went well?
Teeth problems, involving the nasal passage and breathing:
Undoubtedly, this is more complicated. If this is what he has (which I hope he does not) then what treatment options are likely, ie, X-Ray? And again, does anyone have any experience with these?
I'm not trying to self-diagnose him, but these possible outcomes have been suggested. Although my vet is helpful, they cannot offer personal experiences and what I should expect after. Also, I would like to go to the vet knowing what to expect slightly- I feel this will help slightly.
Thanks to anyone who replies- I really appreciate it.
And, just in case you were wondering, I have a vets appointment booked for ten in the morning tomorrow and I've replaced his hay bedding with "almost 100% dust free!" bedding, which should make his breathing slightly easier. Degus are all in bed now, and I just hope nothing bad happens between now and the morning.
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Post by moletteuk on May 20, 2015 11:07:59 GMT
I've replied in your other thread, let's wait and see what the vet says about your boy.
In general terms, a course of antibiotics usually lasts a week, and you would usually see a response to antibiotics within 2 or 3 days if they are working, and significant improvement over the week. You do have to be a bit careful with antibiotics for degus as they can upset the balance of the gut 'flora', so it can be a good idea to feed a probiotic like Oxbow Critical Care or Supreme Recovery at a different time of day to the antibiotic.
The most common dental issue is when spurs develop on the back teeth, this is bits of tooth growing sideways and not getting ground away. Sometimes the vet can get a decent enough look in the mouth without sedation with a tool called a scope to diagnose. Often they will give a light gas anaesthetic to get a proper look and file away the spurs. We then recommend a high forage and high calcium diet to slow down the repeat of this issue.
Sometimes there is a case of the tooth roots overgrowing, the bottom ones down into the jaw and the top molars up towards the nasal cavity. There is no treatment for this other than making the diet as good as you can, and putting the degu to sleep when their quality of life reduces. You would normally have the spurs as well with this condition and you would normally see some sign of eating difficulty and weight loss.
I should ask if anything else is different in the cage other than the dusty bedding, any different dried herbs or grasses, extra shredded cardboard or paper, cleaner? Dust or allergies can cause quite significant sniffling and wheezing, the only way to diagnose is by eliminating possible causes and ruling out infection and dental issues.
I hope the information helps you to feel prepared rather than causing you undue worry!
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 20, 2015 11:34:09 GMT
Thanks- that did help a lot. the vet got a quick look at his teeth,mainly front, then said as he was eating fine and due to the fact he was sneezing as well it was most likely a resp infection. However, I doubt she could have seen the back molars; if he does get no better, I'll take him back in for an examination under light anaesthetic. He has antibiotics and anti inflammatory/ pain relief called Metacam. I have a syringe and he hates it, have resorted to putting both meds on his food as he is not letting anyone put a syringe in mouth. Am just waiting to see if he'll eat this or not, while the medication dries up on it. He has a week of antibiotics and pain relief. It's 2 x0.07ml for the antibiotic and then 1 x 0.3 of pain relief every day. There was more cardboard in the cage- but he hadn't shredded it nearly as much as normal. I've checked P@H but have found no probiotics. Do you know of any other chain pet shops in Britain which might have a suitable product? Thanks again for all your help.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 20, 2015 20:21:59 GMT
Can someone describe mouth breathing for me? I don't believe he is doing this, still breathing out his nose and mouth is shut, but just in case he does progress to this I would like to be able to recognise it so another vets trip can be arranged ASAP.
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Post by moletteuk on May 21, 2015 13:03:18 GMT
It's actually better if he will take the medication on food, it causes less irritation to the mouth and stomach lining this way. You can put it on something absorbant like a few oats, or a tiny piece of shredded wheat, or on something strong smelling like a slice of nut.
The dose of metacam (meloxicam) seems a bit high, I wouldn't give more than 1 drop once a day in this situation.
You get the probiotics from the vet or you may find them to order online.
With mouth breathing they literally open their mouth to breathe, and if you feel down their sides or tummy you should be able to feel the pressure of the air trapped in their tummy. You would probably see reduced activity before you see this, and you may see the degu breathing through their nose but the nostrils flaring as they try to suck air in as a stage that would come before mouth breathing too.
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jos
Warbling Degu
Posts: 33
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Post by jos on May 21, 2015 13:56:36 GMT
Re the probiotics, I ordered sachets of Oxbow critical care from Amazon when my little one was on abs and metacam but I didn't use it in the end as she seemed to be eating and drinking normally with good activity levels, probably because, like molette said, it wasn't upsetting her system as much to take the meds on food. I was supposed to give her the abs and metacam once a day for each and I split this up into morning for the abs and evening for metacam, I don't know if this made it easier on her stomach or not. I mainly did this because it was difficult to get her to eat all the medicated food in one session.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 21, 2015 15:26:52 GMT
It's actually better if he will take the medication on food, it causes less irritation to the mouth and stomach lining this way. You can put it on something absorbant like a few oats, or a tiny piece of shredded wheat, or on something strong smelling like a slice of nut. The dose of metacam (meloxicam) seems a bit high, I wouldn't give more than 1 drop once a day in this situation. You get the probiotics from the vet or you may find them to order online. With mouth breathing they literally open their mouth to breathe, and if you feel down their sides or tummy you should be able to feel the pressure of the air trapped in their tummy. You would probably see reduced activity before you see this, and you may see the degu breathing through their nose but the nostrils flaring as they try to suck air in as a stage that would come before mouth breathing too. His nostrils do flare slightly, but his mouth is closed, and there's no bloating or reduced activity, thankfully. He started antibiotics last night so obviously it's too a change. However,I have noticed he is making the clicking noise less,his breathing is more regular for longer period and instead he has occasional periods where he seems to sneeze and wheeze. Any thoughts on this? I had noticed that with the Metacam. I've been giving him 0.2 approximately which is helping. His breathing does seem to get worse at night,but by the morning he's fine. Could there be any reason for this?
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 21, 2015 15:31:04 GMT
Re the probiotics, I ordered sachets of Oxbow critical care from Amazon when my little one was on abs and metacam but I didn't use it in the end as she seemed to be eating and drinking normally with good activity levels, probably because, like molette said, it wasn't upsetting her system as much to take the meds on food. I was supposed to give her the abs and metacam once a day for each and I split this up into morning for the abs and evening for metacam, I don't know if this made it easier on her stomach or not. I mainly did this because it was difficult to get her to eat all the medicated food in one session. Same here- I'm not having a problem with getting him to eat the antibiotic coated food which surprised me as he's normally fussy about anything slightly damp or not firm. He much prefers his degu nuggets to anything else, which surprises me as they seem so boring compared to other things I've tried to give him... I'm considering giving him the Metacam at night... although as I've already started it, he'd have to miss a dose in the morning which I don't really want to do. I know antibiotics are a medication that has to be used for a full cycle to work- I'm presuming Metacam is just like the paracetamol we take, where it acts instantly?
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Post by moletteuk on May 21, 2015 16:16:23 GMT
The metacam is similar to ibuprofen for humans in that it is a pain killer and anti-inflammatory, and acts quickly, so if he gets worse during the day, then give it to him in the morning, especially as I'm assumining it was prescribed more for its anti-inflammatory properties than as a painkiller. Obviously, I'm not a vet but I still think 0.4ml is a bit high for the metacam dose, normal dose is about an eighth of that 0.05ml, which works out at about 1 drop, vets sometimes look up the dosage for rats who tend to have meds a bit stronger than degus. www.degutopia.co.uk/deguvetlist.htmIf there is a dust component to this, then there could be a clue in him being worse at night and better by the morning. Is the nest material different to the general substrate? Could there be any human chemicals like air freshener or kitchen sprays affecting him?
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Post by Karma on May 21, 2015 20:24:32 GMT
When my monkey goo had a horribly infected wound I was giving 0.1mL once a day (this was the cat dosage of 0.5 mg/mL). 0.4mL seems high to me as well BUT if there are using it to bring down inflammation maybe? Although the swelling my guy with his leg was crazy but he was on baytril and had another antibiotic placed directly into the wound.
Honestly in a few days if he starts to feel better I would drop the metacam dose (feel free to call your vet first and ask, maybe he is using a more dilute solution) - it is extremely hard drug on animals and has been known to cause diabetes in cats and is now considered off label use on them. You want to use it for the shortest possible time necessary.
Hope he heals up quickly!
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 21, 2015 20:41:58 GMT
The metacam is similar to ibuprofen for humans in that it is a pain killer and anti-inflammatory, and acts quickly, so if he gets worse during the day, then give it to him in the morning, especially as I'm assumining it was prescribed more for its anti-inflammatory properties than as a painkiller. Obviously, I'm not a vet but I still think 0.4ml is a bit high for the metacam dose, normal dose is about a quarter of that 0.05ml, which works out at about 1 drop, vets sometimes look up the dosage for rats who tend to have meds a bit stronger than degus. www.degutopia.co.uk/deguvetlist.htmIf there is a dust component to this, then there could be a clue in him being worse at night and better by the morning. Is the nest material different to the general substrate? Could there be any human chemicals like air freshener or kitchen sprays affecting him? Thank you for that info. I'll decrease this amount and see how he fares, it did seem like a lot to me. I do agree with the rat assumption, my vets have knowledge of degus and know they exist (which is better than the other vet, which didn't even know of them!) but degus are still a mystery to some veterinary. Which is wrong, with them becoming more common, there are still people who are sold them with shockingly small amounts of detail. I know people on this site are not vets, but the information they have from experience is extremely valuable none the less. When our degus are ill, I think we'll try more and trust others with their results as vets are sometimes limited. Home remedies can work wonders sometimes. His bedding (not substrate) is basically like toilet paper material, I get it from a pet shop that sell it in bulk, but I haven't had a problem before. However, it is possible they could have changed something. I will change the bedding to a more expensive hamster bedding brand- still toilet paper kind, but better quality. Will just nick some of my brothers hamster bedding. (Clean, obviously.) Kitchen spray would be a possibility, thinking about it. My sister cleaned my window for me with kitchen spray- she said she didn't get any on the cage and sprayed a small amount only with the window open, but still a possibility. The known possibilities so far are: 1) window was left half open whilst I was out- whoever opened it did not shut it BUT it was a warm, non- windy day. 2) kitchen chemicals. Bad, I know, and should not happen. Obviously the precautions taken where not enough, and everyone in my family will know not to use any kind of spray in my room in future. 3) very dusty substrate 4) dust bath being kicked over overnight, and me not noticing half the dust had fallen out when I removed it. (Not too sure about this one, happens a lot and never hurt before) I'm going with 3 or 4, or a mixture of both. Perhaps they over loaded his system. Finally- I read up on Olbas oil and how that is meant to help. This was mentioned by a member somewhere on the forum, several times. I have this oil called, "Covona Vapour Drops. " They contain eucalyptus, cajuput, spike lavender oil, and methylated spirit. I would not use this without recommendations first as some of the ingredients concern me (eucalyptus, spirits) but is this similar to Olbas oil? (That also contains eucalyptus? ) Thanks once again.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 21, 2015 20:53:40 GMT
Have just spoken with my sister again; although she didn't spray a lot of kitchen spray in my room, she did completely blast the bathroom top to bottom with pretty strong kitchen cleaner- I didn't know about this until now, my room is right next to the bathroom and my door was open the entire day, apparently.
Pretty sure this is why- I have no idea why she was using kitchen spray in the bathroom, but she's still young, so I don't think she realised how harmful these chemicals could be...
I'm assuming my other degu are okay. I have two others, an older neutered female who is healthy and normal aside from general old age and a two year old male. Unusual mix,but it does seem to work. They're both fine, but I guess each degu is different... My only hope now is that the hamsters she has in her room won't be effected... They're little Roborskis and I'm pretty sure a slightly RI would knock them out overnight. It's been over five days and her room is further away from the bathroom so I'm hoping they'll be fine.
Any opinions on this?
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Post by uglibug on May 22, 2015 12:05:16 GMT
With regard to the nesting material, have you concidered just giving them a toilet roll? All ours get a toilet roll per cage once a week to nest with and they really enjoy the task of tearing it up themselves to fill the nest boxes with, they spend ages tearing it up and stuffing their nests, cheap and cheerful enrichment as well as practical nesting material.
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jos
Warbling Degu
Posts: 33
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Post by jos on May 22, 2015 13:52:13 GMT
Re the metacam dose, after seeing the vet, the nurse handed over the medication to me and it said 0.4ml dose on the label but she explicitly said it should be 0.05ml, the vet knew I had a degu but Suki was registered as a rat as they didn't have a degu category (it turned out they did but it was hidden on a submenu) so that would tally with the 0.4ml but the lower dose being the right one (thankfully as I'd have really struggled to persuade Suki to have that much!). I hope your little goo is soon better. One of my other girls really hates kitchen cleaner, there is no kitchen door in my flat and they are in the room next door and even using small amounts with good ventilation she still squeaked herself hoarse every time so she thought it was a noxious substance, I now just use washing up liquid instead to keep her pacified!
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Post by moletteuk on May 22, 2015 14:47:44 GMT
Please don't think that we know better than a vet, you should always take a sick or injured degu to the vet, it can just take a bit of searching to find one with degu experience who is happy to talk things through with you. The dosing of medication is just one thing that it is always worth double checking, it is quite common for them to prescribe a bit much if they have used a rat chart. The medication info on Degutopia is quite useful deguworld.proboards.com/thread/15521/vet-guide?page=1There is still a good chance your degu has a respiratory infection that will hopefully improve soon. Think of the other sources of dust or irritation as plan B which may improve things if you eliminate them, or not. I don't think an open window would cause a problem in good weather, and the dust bath sand is unlikely to suddenly be a problem if they have had the same sand for a while. Kitchen paper makes decent low dust nest material.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 22, 2015 16:38:59 GMT
I would always take my degus to a vet. I would never let them suffer. I guess I meant a vets knowledge could be supplemented with other information from people who have seen a degu before. On my degus medication, it says, "species unknown."
I am hoping it's an RI. Never thought I'd say that, obviously I'd rather he was well, but an RI is easier to treat than dental problems. I doubt I'd be able to afford the upkeep of dental work.
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Post by moletteuk on May 22, 2015 19:12:15 GMT
OK. Keep us informed how he gets on.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 23, 2015 8:57:39 GMT
He's not eating anything I give him- yet he's nibbling his bedding which are absorbent pellets...
He's still drinking.
Airways seem much clearer, he was much better last night opposed to the previous night.
I can't give him the antibiotic if he won't eat. I've tried holding him with a towel, etc... With two people, one to hold and one to administer the medication, but with no luck. He squirms around and thinks it's some kind of game, he even started grooming my fingers! He just won't stay still enough.
He's also chewing his wooden levels like normal.
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rhoma
Warbling Degu
Posts: 34
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Post by rhoma on May 23, 2015 11:20:32 GMT
I think what's happened is now his nose is not blocked up, his senses have improved and he's now avoiding anything with antibiotics. He'll eat dried straw, without medication. And I think he's just avoiding his nuggets as he's expecting more due to the fact he's had more treats over the past few days as he refuses to take antibiotics on nuggets.
Have managed to get him to eat some metacam, with a tiny amount of Baytril.
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Post by moletteuk on May 23, 2015 11:31:33 GMT
Well, it's good news that his airways are improving. Keep watching him, hopefully he will start eating nuggets and hay again soon when he is sure they don't have medicine on. Do you have any dried dandelion herb mix type thing to tempt him if he is looking for fibrous type food?
Concentrate on getting the baytril into him, it's more important than the metacam. Try putting it on something strong smelling or something he can't resist, like nut or a little bit of peanut butter, or make a tasty mash of seeds and peanut butter or baby food, just experiment.
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